Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

"Getting it"

This past week has been difficult for myself and every Penn State fan. For me, it has been frustrating as well. I have heard stories about people at work or other non-PSU affiliated family members not understanding what's going on, but it's a little disheartening to find some of my fellow Penn State students, as well as several of my friends, completely disconnected when it comes to Paterno's life and legacy. It's hard for me to hear my friend mention that Joe was "just a football coach", or hear one of my roommates ask why people are sad at the death of someone who covered up for a child molester. When I try to explain to them what he meant to the University as a whole, they still don't seem to understand. They don't understand how there is only one reason that world-class laboratories are located three hours from a major city; how the town would probably be half the size if it wasn't for 200,000 people showing up 6-8 times a year; or how their degree would not have the worldwide name recognition that it does if it wasn't for one Joseph Vincent Paterno. It saddens me to think that these people do not understand that there is more to life than just the straight facts, and how one man can impact millions of people.

I apologize for the rant, but when I ran into someone after the memorial, and he couldn't understand why I was crying, it just set me off.

Aww, look at you. You created a Fanpost! Any content from a premium site that requires a subscription will be deleted once we catch wind of it. If you simply want to share a link, quote, or video, please consider using Fanshots instead. Thanks.

Comment 102 comments  |  6 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Same here.

Cory Giger smells like bologna.

"Heaven hired THE best coach ever".

Paul Jones

by The Heel on Jan 27, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I haven't given up, but I've stopped assuming some people are capable of understanding it.

I’m not sure if it’s willful ignorance or just an inability to comprehend it, but there are just people out there that just can’t “get it”. If anything, this has proven to be a test of character that has allowed me to reevaluate the relationships I have in my life. While I haven’t distanced myself from anyone with a differing opinion, I have cut out the people from my life that have proven they are driven more by fitting in and popularity than they are with doing right. I’ve avoided arguments on most sites other than here, and have only shared insights on Facebook and removed myself from further conversation. I slightly enjoy the irony of people who are obviously in no position to judge others putting down a man above reproach as well as people with no information calling others ignorant simply for disagreeing with them. These are the people that I have decided I no longer need in my life, whether in daily interaction or just social connections.

I consider myself very fortunate for not only being able to “get it”, but also being able to experience it in 5 years at Penn State. I think that my biggest regret in life will be not being able to play football for Paterno. For that I blame my parents, for not giving me the proper physical attributes to achieve that goal. Regardless, we are the fortunate ones. Our lives are richer for understanding it, and our lives will be better for it. That was Joe’s gift to all of us, and one I don’t think I’ll ever personally be able to repay. I’ll do my best every day to live to the ideals he stood for, to never be satisfied, and to make sure that those values live on. Joe didn’t start all the values and ideals we hold so dear, but he sure did a hell of a job exemplifying them for the rest of us.

It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.

by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 27, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's true

Those who don’t “get it” by now, never will. It will only frustrate us if we try to get through to the doubters. Clearly, many of us do “get it” and we will continue to hear and read negative comments from those that have chosen a different viewpoint. Even if the real courts reach a different verdict than the court of public opinion has (which I believe they will) the doubters and mislead won’t change their positions. For myself, I recorded the service but I am not yet ready to view it.

Stop blaming Joe -- media mobs!
Vote out all nine alumni incumbents over next three years

by OlderBudweiser on Jan 26, 2012 8:02 PM EST reply actions  

Wooden will never be worthy of comparison to Paterno

Wooden invented modern college basketball recruiting. He was handed scores of high school all-American players who were receiving gifts to encourage them to attend UCLA, were payed while they were there, and were blackmailed into staying at UCLA if things didn’t work out. Just because he was a humble, midwestern, gee-golly-gosh guy who didn’t make a large salary from UCLA doesn’t mean Wooden wasn’t a cheater. He was.

To me, Wooden is Jim Tressel. He was a winner whose players graduated, and that should never be taken from him. It’s true, even if that doesn’t fit the shady bad guy image. He had a good image with fans. He was one of the worst cheaters in the sport, obvious to anyone paying attention, and everyone just ignored it.

Feel free to Google the name “Sam Gilbert.”

GO IOWA AWESOME

by ckmneon on Jan 28, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

And since apparently Nike also understands what Joe was about...

I expect we’ll never get pressure to put anything more there. Or to adopt one of their fancier unis.

Honestly, it may have just all been window dressing, but I’m glad someone not affiliated with the University finally came out and said publicly what many of us on here think. And as many sales as that might have generated from PSU people, he did take a significant risk in standing up for Joe like he did. Lots of respect.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 27, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

""Don’t get into a pissing contest with a skunk"-JVP"

I’m trying my best to follow this one but it’s hard. I want to make people feel fear and physical pain but it’s impossible on the internet so I might as well chill out.

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

Franco Harris:
"If I had to choose today between the moral integrity and character of Joe Paterno and the politicians and commentators criticizing him, I would pick Joe Paterno, hands down, no contest every time."

by showtime on Jan 30, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Bobby Bowden gets it.

On his comments about the scandal:

"Well I can take away from it. I was not quoted correctly on that. I wouldn’t have made a statement like that, as much as I knew Joe. I was making a speech up in South Georgia. Somebody had asked me what did I think about Joe? And I said I feel kind of like what Joe said when Joe said "I wish I would have done more." So they put in the paper that Bobby said Joe should have done more. Well I wrote Joe a letter and told him that’s not what I said."

On knowing Joe and not knowing:

“Now let’s take people that do not know him. All they know is what they’ve heard on the television or on the radio or in the newspapers, yes, they will take the bad part and remember him by that. But that’s not the majority."

Link to article:

http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/01/24/joe-paterno-death-lung-cancer-bobby-bowden/

by TonyLion on Jan 27, 2012 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

False dichotomy.

I broke down several times at work during the first half of the memorial, and then several more times at home watching the 2nd half later that night.

Yet, obviously based on my comments here, I do not find it appropriate to deify Paterno either.

These efforts to define the world as “you either ‘get it’” (meaning you don’t think Paterno’s inaction should be talked about at all) “or you don’t” is the kind of thing cults engage in to wall themselves off from the outside world. It’s not healthy.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 11:04 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

WOW

From your twisted reasoning in your post which redirects the author’s position into your pigeon hole, you really don’t get it.

Stop blaming Joe -- media mobs!
Vote out all nine alumni incumbents over next three years

by OlderBudweiser on Jan 27, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't get into a pissing contest with a skunk

"That's why you don't play! 'Cuz you're no good!" -Joe Paterno

by pmm156 on Jan 27, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Again

not healthy. This is the kind of thing we used to make fun of Texas A&M for.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

What crosses the line into cultdom

is claiming that it’s impossible for those outside the organization to understand. If you don’t do that, you’re probably on the right side of the line. But many here have strayed over to the other side lately.

Many of the people who are attacking Paterno’s inaction in the case of It know all the facts and do, in fact, understand why people love Paterno, despite the bullshit thrown about here by so many. They just have a different opinion on what constitutes a flaw large enough to tarnish a legacy.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Not most people

Most people in the media acknowledge all the good that Joe did, they just have a different opinion on the bad that he did (or allowed to happen, or didn’t do enough to help stop, etc).

They are still viewed here as ignorant, biased, and not “getting it”.

That’s not a healthy attitude for a community to display.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that by cult

they mean the “personality cult” many PSU alumni built up around Joe Paterno, and which Paterno allowed to be built.

by 1LisHell on Jan 29, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel so much better now.

I’m only part of a “personality” cult, not a REAL one. I’ll sleep so much better tonight, knowing we are not being compared with the Jonestown crew or a group like that.

Still, I wish I would have refused to sign the enrollment forms when Joe keep pressuring me to join. It was the lure of the 10% discount on the JoePa-endorsed hot dogs that caused me to sin . . . .

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 29, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

By definition...

of ‘cult’ and ‘personality cult’, neither of these epithets are accurate.

by iamkatemcg on Jan 29, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I love the argument that Paterno allowed people to worship him

What was he supposed to do, start acting like an asshole? If he is humble and tells people not to pay attention to him, people like him more. If he shows any personality, people like him more. What is one to do?

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 31, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

More internet trolling.

by confirmy on Jan 31, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

OP here.

When I mentioned IT in my OP, I meant to reference the people that only see Joe for the last two months, and not for the last 61 years. There are people that disagree with Joe’s handling of the situation, but still remain committed to Success with Honor. They “get it.” There are people that love Paterno for the 409 wins, but couldn’t really care less about the principle of the Grand Experiment. They don’t.

I have one story as to people outside of PSU “getting it.” Over the winter break, I went to visit one of my old high school teachers. She grew up in NEPA, but was a Notre Dame fan all of her life. During my high school career, she never said a nice word about Penn State’s football program. However, when I talked with her last month, she explained to me how while she didn’t support the team, she had nothing but the utmost respect for how he turned his players into men. Here was a woman that had no prerogative to support Paterno, yet I would say that she “got it.”

by nickrapak on Jan 27, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Thanks.

Well said, and I can agree with all of it. I think Joe would be appalled at the quotes in the other thread that are now closed, and I’m appalled that the mods have let it happen and that so many people see no problem with it.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec from me cs93.

Spot on.

If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.

by SarcasmJam on Jan 27, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Most people will never "get it"

about anything. They are too self serving and self centered to think of much outside themselves. Thank goodness most of us had a great example of someone who did “get it” to try and follow.

by FB6244 on Jan 27, 2012 11:12 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

What's not to get?

It is metaphysically impossible for a someone like Paterno to allow the suffering of children knowing others were negligent and it was left to him alone to do something about it.

by TonyLion on Jan 27, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. This is the counterpart of

“Joe DID go to the police!”, though. Equally ignorant, equally unsupportable by adults with basic common sense.

If you attack peoples’ ignorance on what Paterno did in one sense, you are inviting counterattacks in the other.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

You're not helping.

Address the point or don’t respond, please. This metaattacking you’re doing is far worse than what you think I’m doing, from an honest philosophical point of view.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

It was really only an attack

because I obviously think my ethic on discourse does more good than yours, but it wasn’t meant to score points against you or anything. I’ve just finally come to pinpoint why we’re incompatible.

"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.

by OctaShields on Jan 27, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And I, too

I believe my ethic on discourse (actually attacking arguments rather than attacking you) does more good than yours does, too.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't think

that calling someone ignorant in the first line of your response is a personal attack?

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

by NewJackCity on Jan 28, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

NJC, you obviously don't know the rules.

(1) By definition, nothing M1EK says to/about anyone or any group is not a personal attack.

(2) Anything said back to him is, again by definition, disagreeable and wrong.

(3) There are two stock responses from M1EK: “I can’t respond in the same way you people attack me; therefore I (and my points) are better than you(rs).” and/or “That’s uncivil.”

Obey, and all is good . . . .

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 28, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

you forgot the third stock response

“I don’t do homework assignments” in response to asking him to back up any of his points with any sort of proof or fact or evidence of any sort.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Disingenuous

I said “just as ignorant as”; following through on the implication of the poster to whom I was responding, who obviously believes people who say “Paterno covered up child rape” are ignorant (or malicious).

Nice try, though. Shows the bankruptcy of your arguments.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

What argument?

Point to the “bankrupt” argument I made. I thought you were comparing his statement to the “ignorant” straw man argument you like to throw around. It seems I misunderstood you, I apologize.

But next time don’t put words in my mouth, either. I guess now you’ll think of me when you refer to the people “in the other thread” arguing whatever it is you imagine I was arguing.

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

by NewJackCity on Jan 30, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand what you are saying.

You keep putting other peoples arguments in my posts. I can logically expect a counter-attack to an argument I’ve made, but it wholly unreasonable to be questioned on an argument I didn’t make.

...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...

by jesse. on Jan 27, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

You're being disingenuous

because I know you’re a smart guy.

Again, this is not a two person conversation. There are many other people involved, and far more reading, and it is absolutely relevant to point out that the primary argument made by Paterno apologists is just as ignorant as the argument you cited from Paterno attackers.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I've seen inaccuracy on both sides of the fence...

and the only meaningful discussions I’ve had with anyone have come from people who have actually processed the facts or who admit, forthrightly, that they don’t know that much about what actually happened. M1EK is literally the only person I “know” who seems to actually know most of the details and who I still cannot seem to find very much common ground with.

And really, I think I’m done defending Joe Paterno and his legacy. People will remember whatever they like about him. I’m sure, no matter that I think he was a fall guy, that I’ll never be able to think about him without thinking about the Sandusky mess. And anyone who hasn’t been convinced by the tributes to this man that this world has lost a great one will simply find my words hollow, ignorant, and blind.

The legal system will be dealing with the rest of the accused in a formal and controlled manner consistent with our ideal of innocent until proven guilty. And they either will or won’t get what’s coming to them.

by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 27, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

False narrative, again

I have never, ever, ever said that only the possibility I believe in could be correct. I have also never said Joe participated in a cover-up, just that some of the apologist arguments are as ridiculous as those who say he did.

Joe’s sins were of the clueless and careless variety – omission, not comission. Smaller than those that appear most likely committed by Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and possibly the BOT. But large enough to require they be faced instead of swept under the rug.

Stop spreading malicious falsehoods and you might win more arguments by means other than appealing to the mob.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

perhaps you don't flat out say that,

you just strongly imply that anyone else who says that is wrong, or an apologist, an idiot, etc.

Yes, there are idiots on both side of the argument. Just because you find idiots on the opposite side doesn’t mean that your specific position is now all of a sudden idiot proof.

Joe’s sins were could have been of the clueless and careless variety – omission, not comission. Smaller than those that appear most likely committed by Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and possibly the BOT. But large enough to require they be faced instead of swept under the rug, if indeed they exist.

To commit a moral sin, one must have intent. If there’s no intent, then there’s a mistake (one recognized in hindsight), but not a sin.

Stop spreading malicious falsehoods and you might win more an argument.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's ok

you’ve won. You can go home now.

by FB6244 on Jan 30, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

You probably won't believe this

but it’s the goddamn truth:

most of the people who know the facts and disagree with the apologist narrative have stopped posting. I’m too stubborn, so far, to follow suit.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

who exactly has stopped posting that shared those views?

or is that considered homework? This is part of your M.O., you make a claim that isn’t supported by anything other than your gut feeling. you then claim that to be “the goddamn truth”. You then respond to anyone who disagrees with you, or asks for anything to support that claim, calling them some sort of evil teacher/educator trying to give you homework (though now I see some of where your disdain for JoePa comes from, you oppose anyone who asks that others put in effort).

There doesn’t seem to be an actual drop off in people commenting on these posts, or on posts on other boards. I recall a while ago you made this same exact claim about how all your brethren have stopped posting, or whatever. I then made a poll just to take a temperature of people’s attitudes. Sure, the poll was on this site (therefore an inherent bias), but if these people really existed (though from my experience with the internet, one side of an argument doesn’t just magically disappear. Typically people fall out of it, but it isn’t like one side drops out at a higher rate unless there’s a good reason to explain that. Stubborn people tend to exist in equal proportions), the results of that poll didn’t support your claim.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Hahaha...

“You’re not helping. Address the point or don’t respond, please.”

by janthonygomes on Jan 27, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Not true.

Paterno himself, to Sally Jenkins, said he did not follow up. And he says he thinks he should have. He said why he thought he didn’t, but even Jenkins found his explanation shaky.

There are lots of ways to disagree civilly about what happened, ways that are not based in misrepresentations like “Joe DID go to the police” or “we don’t know whether Joe followed up”. I suggest that the people who aren’t willing to do so have serious problems.

by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Just a note

Both McQueary and Curley testified (under oath) that there was follow-up with Paterno. You can debate whether Paterno’s memory of 10 year old events is better than that of McQuearys and Curley’s, but I think it is still reasonable to we don’t know the specifics of that follow-up.

by dontcallmescooter on Jan 27, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

also

Paterno might have been saying that after those initial follow ups, he didn’t follow up further, or follow up enough.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

You guys are forgetting

1. Curley is under indictment for perjury.

2. Paterno was just interviewed in the friendliest of possible venues and couldn’t construct a plausible argument that he followed up. Sally Jenkins said he wishes he had.

Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.

You guys are welcome to your own opinions. Do not expect me to sit idly by as you attempt to construct your own facts which are in direct opposition to the words of the man himself.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

1) Actually pretty much every time I’ve pointed out that Curley has said that I’ve also pointed out that you have to take his testimony with a grain of salt, due to the perjury trial. By the way, what will you say if/when Curley is acquitted of the perjury charge?
1-b) McQueary is the entire basis of the charges for which Paterno is being held morally culpable. Are you saying that because if Curley (possibly/allegedly) lied once that everything he said must be a lie? Are you also holding McQueary to this same standard? If so, then your argument here falls apart

2) Friendly environment or not, this still relies on JoePa remembering every action that occurred ~10 years ago in a case he apparently didn’t think was that important at the time (otherwise he would have done more) while essentially on his death bed. But it is reasonable to assume that Paterno is telling the truth here. Still, that doesn’t make his inaction at the time an immoral act at the time. Also, his response about discomfort/inexperience/reluctance to be seen as interfering, shouldn’t be completely dismissed as inadequate. People are holding Paterno to a higher standard than they would virtually anyone else if they said, “I reported it to the proper people and had faith that they handled the situation appropriately.”

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Again. Put yourself there

Why would he feel compelled to follow up? Paterno reported the issue to two supposedly competent, experienced and well compensated professionals who’s job it is to handle such matters. If Paterno had good working relationships with both guys in the past, what in his mind would give him doubt to the point that he would follow up?

If what you are convicting Paterno of is the standard of conduct, then there is no hope for anyone to do any job. If any individual is ultimately responsible for the conduct of your direct reports as well as your boss, then the system is deeply flawed. I have no problem laying blame at Paterno’s feet if he in fact was wrong, but in all fairness, let’s make sure the standard of behavior is reasonable.

by SilverFoxx on Jan 27, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Thank you for taking up this argument.

I personally feel like I’ve exhausted my ‘argumentative capital’ with M1EK (I mean – just look at my sig line).

Maybe I’ve just reached my limit of frustration at arguing with a brick wall, but I still have hope that someone else can talk some sense in to the wall.

Fight the good fight, SilverFoxx…

Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®

by leeharvey418 on Jan 27, 2012 11:26 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

rjm, do you sleep?

After these months of reading and thinking, I’ve evolved to the very same conclusions.

I’d like to add one more thought…
The laws for reporting suspected child abuse are designed to get the case out of amateur hands and into the hands of law enforcement and child welfare professionals. These laws are aimed at protecting the privacy and identity of the victims, as well as the integrity of any legal action. Joe reported up the chain of command to someone who could launch an investigation. With regard to follow-up (beyond what he did with McQueary), Joe had no right to know the details or status of an investigation, as he was neither a witness nor a victim.

In spite of the overheated rhetoric, I believe that demanding action beyond the law is not only wrong, but ultimately unhelpful to any future victims.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby

by nps on Jan 29, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't sleep normal hours when I travel for work

I’m in Florida today, which isn’t as great as it sounds given that I’m in a windowless room in a convention center that looks on the inside like every other convention center.

But glad I could be of service.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 29, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

M1EK is judging Paterno’s conduct from the view of knowing everything we know now, not from the basis of what he knew at the time

No, I am not doing that at all. You are doing what is known as “putting words in somebody’s mouth”, as long as we’re throwing around argumentative tropes.

I said Paterno should have gone to Curley and Schultz and asked whatever happened with that kid and Sandusky – based on nothing more than what we know he knew at the time – “fondling, something of a sexual nature” and a very distraught report from McQueary.

I have also pointed out that asking McQueary (the low man on the totem pole) later on if he was OK with the apparent lack of action is not sufficient, as McQueary is in precisely the role there where he would be logically afraid to follow up (whether he still should have is a matter of opinion, but he clearly had a lot more to lose than Paterno and a lot less power to actually make anything happen).

And, for what seems like the hundredth time,

Paterno did not follow up about the investigation. He said so himself, to Sally Jenkins. You aren’t paying very close attention to the actual facts of the case.

You are welcome to your own opinion. You are not welcome to your own set of facts.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

“You aren’t paying very close attention to the actual facts of the case.”

Neither are you, in ignoring Curley’s testimony. That is another set of facts. Just because you choose to dismiss it doesn’t mean that others are wrong in including that in their own set of facts (which, actually, they are very welcome to, whether you like it or not).

What if Sally Jenkins followed up with, “what about Curley’s testimony that he did indeed follow up with you?” What if he responded, “oh…well that. Yeah, he did follow up with me that one time, but after that I never went back to him to follow up because there wasn’t any new information about the case at the time, and he just told me what I already knew from McQueary: that Sandusky was in an inappropriate situation with a child, but that there was no legal proof of any wrong doing, and that they had no lead on who the kid was, but that they were going to ban him from bringing kids onto campus in the future. Since McQueary seemed to have no issue participating in Second Mild events with Sandusky and Curley and the rest of the university administration still dealt with him I just assumed that everything was fine. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight that wasn’t enough and I wish I followed up more and asked pointed questions, but at the time, based on what I was told I was satisfied, and thought that any further questions would have been seen as trying to interfere with the investigation one way or the other.”

Yes, I know that is a hypothetical situation, you don’t have to point that out and claim I’m making up facts. For the record, everyone, these are not facts, they are just possible scenarios based on the facts at hand.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Please show me

WHERE in the Jenkins interview Joe says he didn’t follow up.

I’ll wait.

As you say, you’re not welcome to your own set of facts.

by iamkatemcg on Jan 29, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

well, he does admit it, somewhat

in the article he said

How Sandusky, 67, allegedly evaded detection by state child services, university administrators, teachers, parents, donors and Paterno himself remains an open question. "I wish I knew," Paterno said. "I don’t know the answer to that. It’s hard." Almost as difficult for Paterno to answer is the question of why, after receiving a report in 2002 that Sandusky had abused a boy in the shower of Penn State’s Lasch Football Building, and forwarding it to his superiors, he didn’t follow up more aggressively.

"I didn’t know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was," he said. "So I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did. It didn’t work out that way."

Emphasis mine. What M1EK posted a bit above came from the Q&A she had a couple days later:

Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.

From the original article it makes it seem like there was follow up, but not aggressive enough to the point where he asked, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” partly because he was uncomfortable, partly because he was unsure, and partly because he didn’t want to be seen as interfering.

Personally I find a distinction between “not following up” and “not following up more aggressively”, but I could see how others might not.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Why be compelled to follow up?

Because nothing happened to Sandusky – he was still working with his charity in which he had access to kids, and was still hanging around the program.

If you care at all about the kid who (was reported to you) was raped, you would have to at a bare minimum go back to those guys and say “seriously, what happened?”

If then they say “we cannot comment” or “the law prevents us from doing anything”, then that’s one thing. But, see above, he didn’t do that. Period.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Having read M1EK's posts since Ive got here, though I do not agree with them, its abundently clear that..

1. Joe should have known that Schultz, even though we have testimony of McQuery’s and the UPPD Police Chief at the time referring to Schultz as the cops and as “my boss”, was not the cops (even though it is quite possible Joe thought the same thing).

2. Joe should have known that Curley, Schultz, and Spanier were incapable of doing their jobs.

3. As too follow up, Joe should have known that McQuery, in his position on the coaching staff at the time, when Joe asked him if he was OK, Joe should have known that McQuery would be afraid to tell him the truth if he was OK with everything, basically, he should have known the McQuery was telling him “what he thought he wanted to hear.”

4. That because was Curley is charged with perjury, his testimony that he followed up with Joe, is a lie.

Thats alot of should have knowns to hold someone to. If thats the case, you would think if Joe was supposed to have this remarkable foresight, Penn State should have won alot more National Championships since Joe knew what the other team was going to do before they did.

There is one thing unmistakably clear with our dealings here on BSD. When every little bit of new information comes out, most of us see at reasonably as vindication points for Joe. Where others, just take it, add the “should haves” to it, and use them as points to further vilify Joe. To each their own.

by BRJ75 on Jan 30, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

On the subject of things we don't understand...

The absolute conviction that more action = better for the victims = meeting a higher moral standard.

I’ve seen remarks from child welfare and law enforcement professionals that this is not necessarily the case, but I’d really like to know more—not just the opinions of the media and general public. While it may make people feel better to think “if only Paterno had done more, many victims would have been protected,” it seems there is actually some downside to going outside the prescribed channels. If someone does go beyond what is required by law and policy, and in doing so violates the privacy of the victims, or the integrity of any legal action, is that really better?

I’d really like to hear more from the professionals in this area . . . can anybody here provide additional insight?

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby

by nps on Jan 30, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

from what I've read

all the experts have essentially said that what Joe/McQueary did was either the right thing to do, or at the very least the “normal” thing to do. Of course what I’ve read is possibly biased because the people who would write such an article/make such a statement would be trying to defend Paterno, while any expert on the other side would possibly just think, “well, everyone already knows Joe Paterno did the wrong thing”. (also, I’m more likely to read things linked on here and on facebook, where the posters are more biased) And of course in the comments to such articles/statements there is often the, "you are enabling a pedophile enabler…so that’s always cool to say that about child welfare experts.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 30, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

not equal at all

And if you can’t see that, there’s no hope.

First of all, it wrongly assumes it was primarily Joe’s responsbility, rather than McQuery’s, to go to the police. Second, it assumes that it was Joe’s job to understand that talking to Schultz wasn’t the right way to go. Nobody has asked Joe “why did you call Schultz rather than the regular police with uniforms and what not.” Joe’s lawyer asserted that Schultz had the power to conduct investigations, it should be noted. McQuery testified to the same thing and if you’re going to start saying McQuery isn’t credible, then this whole thing collapses. It is clear that Joe thought he had the power to do something, otherwise Joe wouldn’t have called him.

The distance between the truth and “Joe covered up a child rape” is far greater than the distance between talking to Schultz and talking to a regular cop.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 29, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Bullshit.

“Schultz WAS the cops” is completely false. He took no oath; wears no badge or uniform. The rest of the world has long since concluded this – if you keep pushing this as not that far from the truth, there is no hope for you.

It’s just as false as “Paterno covered up child rape”.

by M1EK on Jan 29, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

reading comprehension: you should learn how it is done

unless you are referring to a completely different post than what reedjohnmiller said, because he is conceding that Schultz isn’t a cop. What he is implying is that the difference between whatever actually happened and “Joe covered up a child rape” is MUCH greater than the difference between a real cop and the role Schultz had (or was perceived to have by Paterno and/or McQueary).

This is one of those instances where people are pointing out where you are making a strawman argument. If you want to ignore that, it’s fine. Actually it isn’t fine, it is ignorant and wrong, but there’s not really anything anyone here can do about that.

by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Question

If you have a major problem with a company, do you:

A) Go to someone on the board of directors, who you happen to know, and who has handled major issues in the past, although they are not a direct employee of the company

or

B) Call customer service.

I realize that this is infinitely more serious. To my mind, if I hear that an employee of mine may/may not have seen something sexual, I go as high up as I can to make sure it gets taken care of.

Was that right? In hindsight, no. But not because of Joe’s actions.

by iamkatemcg on Jan 29, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

people who aren’t willing to do so have serious problems

I would rather have those than the ones you possess.

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 27, 2012 6:43 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Reply fail

Was directed at the post of 4:39 pm today (Friday).

"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."

by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 27, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

ALL. THE. BUNNIES.

If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.

by SarcasmJam on Jan 27, 2012 10:37 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks.

If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.

by SarcasmJam on Jan 28, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

We're a community, not a cult

First of all, the term “cult” doesn’t really mean anything anymore to scholars of this sort of thing because it’s so overused, but the main components of a cult (as opposed to other religious groups) is that they’re all encompassing and totally demanding. Members of a cult are heavily discouraged or prevented from leaving and are expected to commit all of their time and, usually, money to the cause. That doesn’t describe the typical church where people come and go as they want to nor does it describe people who admire Joe Paterno.

The people who don’t “get it,” i’m afraid, don’t get it because they have no idea what being part of a community is all about and how it leads one to develop genuine love for people you’ve never actually met based on shared values and admiration.

I don’t believe anyone here has ever claimed that only Penn State people are capable of getting it. If they do, they may be wrong. It depends on what they mean

There are two levels of getting it; there’s getting the idea of a community like this in general and then there’s getting what Penn State is about in particular.

If you haven’t been a long-time fan of Penn State then no matter how sympathetic you are, you’re not going to fully “get it.” If you don’t have a lot of memories of being with your friends and family watching PSU football than PSU football is never going to evoke the emotions that it does for us. That’s just the nature of culture. It’s like me trying to understand Canadians feelings about winning the 1972 Summit Series or understand why Scandinavians willingly eat lutefisk during certain celebrations. I get it on an intellectual level, but I can never feel what they they feel about it. I don’t have the connected memories.

The other level of getting it is this general idea of being part of a community, just not the PSU community. On that level, a lot of people “get it.” I’ve recently talked to a few Canadians and some people from New England who say that they too have regional sporting/cultural icons that mean a lot to them so it does make sense to them. Joe is somewhat unique in that he was there so long and, unlike most legendary coaches, died soon after he stopped coaching so he has a connection to both the old fans and the young ones that few sporting figures do, so Joe is unique in a lot of ways, but he is not the first or last person to be admired and cherished by a big group of people. And not the only coach to do so either. There’s no question that Alabama fans of a certain age can sort of relate to our current situation and there are UNC fans who say “I can remember exactly where I was when I heard Dean Smith was retiring.” If DS had died on the job, imagine the impact that would have had. Imagine the lines that would turn out for a viewing if Coach K retired and died three months later – smaller than at PSU, because Duke is a smaller fan base, but it wouldn’t be totally different.

Finally, this thing about “you’re saying we shouldn’t talk about the scandal” is a straw-man. Nobody is saying that.

They’re saying one or both of two things A) for all the reasons mentioned, the evidence shows that Joe didn’t do anything unethical so it’s a moot point and continuing to say that Joe “drove” the scandal or whatever is false and just slander. But, obviously, insofar as there is genuine news coming out of the Sandusky case or the Curley/Schultz case, it’s appropriate to report that B) the guy just died. In our culture, when people die, we focus on their good points. We do this out of respect for the people that loved them and because now that they’re gone, we want to keep with us the parts of them that were good so that they can help make us better people. There’s nothing to be gained by dwelling on the negative. That would be like saving your cat’s shit just because you want to maintain a thorough and honest vision of your cat’s life.

The critics and so forth will have the rest of their lives to dissect the Sandusky case. But right now there are real human beings mourning a real personal loss.

How would you feel if your grandfather died and there were a bunch of articles fixating on his worst qualities? Just think about that.

by reedjohnmiller on Jan 29, 2012 2:58 AM EST reply actions  

Thought about this

Soliloguy the other day, and how it can be applied to the memorial, to a degree.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin

by AriesGD on Jan 29, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Black Shoe Diaries. If you haven't already done so, create an account and get involved in the conversation.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar2_small
Sad News: 717's Own, Reading Rambler Passes On
154690_10100374022013820_13900087_66639438_4085030_n_small
Breaking Down Penn State's Inaugural D1 Hockey Schedule
At_the_foot_of_a_legend_small
My Obligatory Off-Season Book Post

Recent FanPosts

Hugh_griffith_small
Food for Thursday....The PA Pineapple Company
Psukoolaid_small
Suggestions for fun in Minneapolis?
1-joe-paterno_small
Please clarify your posting policy.
A_cullen_the_bug_small
JoePa & Esquire - and other stories
Jet_ski_jump__reef_central_avatar__small
Sandusky Jury Selection Begins June 5th
Small
Kameron Miles
Small
ESPN - reporting PSU considering schedule changes
Joepa1_small
Jimmy Johnson's worst loss

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SHOP THE BLACK SHOE DIARIES STORE

Gameday Depot University Apparel


Managing Editors

Zn_avatar_small Mike Pettigano

Img110_small Jeff Junstrom

Asst. Editors

6a00d8341c630a53ef0105369fb7ee970b-800wi_small Jared Slanina

Olmec_small Devon Edwards

Baller_small Eric Gibson

Mauti_small Cari Greene

Staff Writers

Iron_armor_small Galen

New4_good_small Nick Blonde

Turd_ferguson_psu_small Tim Aydin

On_the_way_to_grad_small Kyle_Martin

N53100510_31463067_5584_small Adam Collyer

Bus-fire-bikes_small Dan Vecellio

What-a-country-yakov_small bscaff

Small Keith Platt

Small TimHyland