"Getting it"
This past week has been difficult for myself and every Penn State fan. For me, it has been frustrating as well. I have heard stories about people at work or other non-PSU affiliated family members not understanding what's going on, but it's a little disheartening to find some of my fellow Penn State students, as well as several of my friends, completely disconnected when it comes to Paterno's life and legacy. It's hard for me to hear my friend mention that Joe was "just a football coach", or hear one of my roommates ask why people are sad at the death of someone who covered up for a child molester. When I try to explain to them what he meant to the University as a whole, they still don't seem to understand. They don't understand how there is only one reason that world-class laboratories are located three hours from a major city; how the town would probably be half the size if it wasn't for 200,000 people showing up 6-8 times a year; or how their degree would not have the worldwide name recognition that it does if it wasn't for one Joseph Vincent Paterno. It saddens me to think that these people do not understand that there is more to life than just the straight facts, and how one man can impact millions of people.
I apologize for the rant, but when I ran into someone after the memorial, and he couldn't understand why I was crying, it just set me off.
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I made the mistake
of going on the comments section of a news media outlet’s story concerning the tribute. I wanted to write in praise of what Phil Knight said. Instead I was very angry and distraught about what I saw.
I thought today was a beautiful tribute to a man who left an indelible positive impact on the lives of literally millions of people. I was amazed hearing the stories from Christian Marrone. Paterno was a man who not only connected to his starters, but spent his time (even when it was fleeting and his health was failing) talking to players that hadn’t gotten to spend much time on the field. And despite this generosity of his time he was able to be a successful family man. He sure must not have gotten much sleep!
I think we just need to let the rest of the world think whatever depressing, corrupting garbage that it wants to wallow in. Another thing that struck me was Jay’s story about Paterno in high school telling his school chum “if you think you won, what’s it matter what anyone else thinks?” Paterno was a winner. And he made our program a winner. Our tradition is ours. The fact that other teams never embraced it – that they had no shame and wanted to cheat and be scuzzy – is exactly what made our program special in the first place. And if the rest of the world doesn’t get it still, who cares?
Paterno’s legacy is our legacy. The rest of the world can think what it wants to. We had a principled giant in a field of moral pygmies. We as fans are heirs to the greatest and proudest of all football traditions. Don’t let anyone else ruin that for you.
by hatch on Jan 26, 2012 8:00 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
Yea... I've stopped getting angry
It’s not worth it anymore.
We Are because You Were
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Jan 26, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
I haven't given up, but I've stopped assuming some people are capable of understanding it.
I’m not sure if it’s willful ignorance or just an inability to comprehend it, but there are just people out there that just can’t “get it”. If anything, this has proven to be a test of character that has allowed me to reevaluate the relationships I have in my life. While I haven’t distanced myself from anyone with a differing opinion, I have cut out the people from my life that have proven they are driven more by fitting in and popularity than they are with doing right. I’ve avoided arguments on most sites other than here, and have only shared insights on Facebook and removed myself from further conversation. I slightly enjoy the irony of people who are obviously in no position to judge others putting down a man above reproach as well as people with no information calling others ignorant simply for disagreeing with them. These are the people that I have decided I no longer need in my life, whether in daily interaction or just social connections.
I consider myself very fortunate for not only being able to “get it”, but also being able to experience it in 5 years at Penn State. I think that my biggest regret in life will be not being able to play football for Paterno. For that I blame my parents, for not giving me the proper physical attributes to achieve that goal. Regardless, we are the fortunate ones. Our lives are richer for understanding it, and our lives will be better for it. That was Joe’s gift to all of us, and one I don’t think I’ll ever personally be able to repay. I’ll do my best every day to live to the ideals he stood for, to never be satisfied, and to make sure that those values live on. Joe didn’t start all the values and ideals we hold so dear, but he sure did a hell of a job exemplifying them for the rest of us.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 27, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's true
Those who don’t “get it” by now, never will. It will only frustrate us if we try to get through to the doubters. Clearly, many of us do “get it” and we will continue to hear and read negative comments from those that have chosen a different viewpoint. Even if the real courts reach a different verdict than the court of public opinion has (which I believe they will) the doubters and mislead won’t change their positions. For myself, I recorded the service but I am not yet ready to view it.
Stop blaming Joe -- media mobs!
Vote out all nine alumni incumbents over next three years
I feel the same way
Unfortunately, my office gets LA Times, and I wish I didn’t see this trash Bill Dwyer wrote regarding JoePa’s legacy. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/23/sports/la-sp-0124-dwyre-joe-paterno-20120124. The title of the article is “Joe Paterno could have taken a cue from John Wooden.”
In response, I wrote him the following email:
Bill:
It’s hard to believe this trash you have written is what stands for journalism these days — you attack Joe Paterno’s legacy immediately after the day he passes away. If John Wooden could see you from above, he would give you the middle finger for disrespecting a fellow legend. Thank goodness most people in California think the LA Times is a piece of trash, akin to TMZ gossip columns and/or Perez Hilton’s blogs.
It’s obvious you have never read the grand jury indictment and/or subsequent preliminary hearing. However, using your poor journalism skills, you attempted to tarnish Joe Paterno’s legacy by stating that he was the one "steering the bus on the Sandusky scandal." If you performed any research on this topic, you would know that Paterno fulfilled his legal obligation as written by the legislators of Pennsylvania. He contacted his superior (i.e., Tim Curley—athletic director) as mandated by the law. Paterno made sure the "right people" (i.e., Gary Schultz — who served as head of campus police and Graham Spanier – who served as president of Penn State) were involved in the investigation. Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, we have subsequently learned that these people did not perform their jobs. However, back in 2002, if Paterno attempted to persuade them as to how the investigation should have been conducted, he would have been accused of obstruction of justice in order to further a case in which he only had second-hand information.
Being a West Coast guy, I can see why you would like John Wooden – but one of the lessons Coach Wooden taught his fellow players was to reserve judgment. Bill, take a page out of John Wooden’s own book, and reserve judgment until you have all the facts (or at least perform some due diligence research before you tarnish a real legend.) I am now going to flush this dribble you have written to a place where it rightfully belongs – my toilet.
by ssd on Jan 26, 2012 9:11 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
Wooden will never be worthy of comparison to Paterno
Wooden invented modern college basketball recruiting. He was handed scores of high school all-American players who were receiving gifts to encourage them to attend UCLA, were payed while they were there, and were blackmailed into staying at UCLA if things didn’t work out. Just because he was a humble, midwestern, gee-golly-gosh guy who didn’t make a large salary from UCLA doesn’t mean Wooden wasn’t a cheater. He was.
To me, Wooden is Jim Tressel. He was a winner whose players graduated, and that should never be taken from him. It’s true, even if that doesn’t fit the shady bad guy image. He had a good image with fans. He was one of the worst cheaters in the sport, obvious to anyone paying attention, and everyone just ignored it.
Feel free to Google the name “Sam Gilbert.”
GO IOWA AWESOME
I've been uplifted
by knowing more about the multi-dimensional greatness of Joe Paterno. I am inspired by his example, and hope to make a fraction of the impact that he did. I feel better about the world because I “get it.” And I didn’t even go to Penn State.
For those who don’t “get it” —it’s their loss.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by nps on Jan 26, 2012 9:15 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
Thanks
I for one “get it”.
I used to be a little bothered that our plain uniforms had a Nike logo on them. From today forward, I’m officially ok with it.
by mogstaar on Jan 27, 2012 12:26 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
And since apparently Nike also understands what Joe was about...
I expect we’ll never get pressure to put anything more there. Or to adopt one of their fancier unis.
Honestly, it may have just all been window dressing, but I’m glad someone not affiliated with the University finally came out and said publicly what many of us on here think. And as many sales as that might have generated from PSU people, he did take a significant risk in standing up for Joe like he did. Lots of respect.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 27, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Taking a lesson from Joe.
This week I saw a few players tweet a quote from JoePa in regards to responding to people sending hateful messages.
“Don’t get into a pissing contest with a skunk”-JVP
Yesterday I saw a retweet from PennState Proud (I said this in the memorial post but it seems more appropriate here). “From the outside looking in you can’t understand it, from the inside looking out, you can’t explain it”.
by Jeannine Pinaula on Jan 27, 2012 9:39 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
""Don’t get into a pissing contest with a skunk"-JVP"
I’m trying my best to follow this one but it’s hard. I want to make people feel fear and physical pain but it’s impossible on the internet so I might as well chill out.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Franco Harris:
"If I had to choose today between the moral integrity and character of Joe Paterno and the politicians and commentators criticizing him, I would pick Joe Paterno, hands down, no contest every time."
Bobby Bowden gets it.
On his comments about the scandal:
"Well I can take away from it. I was not quoted correctly on that. I wouldn’t have made a statement like that, as much as I knew Joe. I was making a speech up in South Georgia. Somebody had asked me what did I think about Joe? And I said I feel kind of like what Joe said when Joe said "I wish I would have done more." So they put in the paper that Bobby said Joe should have done more. Well I wrote Joe a letter and told him that’s not what I said."
On knowing Joe and not knowing:
“Now let’s take people that do not know him. All they know is what they’ve heard on the television or on the radio or in the newspapers, yes, they will take the bad part and remember him by that. But that’s not the majority."
Link to article:
http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/01/24/joe-paterno-death-lung-cancer-bobby-bowden/
False dichotomy.
I broke down several times at work during the first half of the memorial, and then several more times at home watching the 2nd half later that night.
Yet, obviously based on my comments here, I do not find it appropriate to deify Paterno either.
These efforts to define the world as “you either ‘get it’” (meaning you don’t think Paterno’s inaction should be talked about at all) “or you don’t” is the kind of thing cults engage in to wall themselves off from the outside world. It’s not healthy.
by M1EK on Jan 27, 2012 11:04 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
M1EK, we know how you feel about Penn State.
I think the arguments with you tend to focus too much on a specific and not on the whole, but I’ve seen enough in your posts to know that you have a respect for Paterno and a passion for Penn State. It’s easy to argue all day if you’re going to focus on semantics, and that’s why it seems like there’s been a lot of hostility. I don’t think there are many people out there that truly get everything Joe Paterno had to offer, but it’s inarguable that some people understand it more than others. That’s the nature of this post. There are some people out there that will never consider him more than a football coach. There are some people out there that will consider his football success to be among his least significant roles. Nobody is asking you or anyone else to deify Paterno, but it might not be a bad thing if more people in this world had some of his values.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 27, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 10 recs
WOW
From your twisted reasoning in your post which redirects the author’s position into your pigeon hole, you really don’t get it.
Stop blaming Joe -- media mobs!
Vote out all nine alumni incumbents over next three years
by OlderBudweiser on Jan 27, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Don't get into a pissing contest with a skunk
"That's why you don't play! 'Cuz you're no good!" -Joe Paterno
Cult...
I have had people remark to me that people who graduate from PSU are like a cult. Now, that obviously has some negative connotations, but it does mean that being engrossed in the PSU experience changes something in people that doesn’t happen at most colleges and universities. So long as those things include a focus on working as a team, conducting yourself respectfully, working hard, and pulling together when times are tough… I’m proud of that “cult.” That “cult” is probably why PSU grads are considered so attractive in the business world. That “cult” is probably why PSU alums are so active and contribute back so much to their University for the rest of their life. That “cult” is part of how PSU has become a great academic institution.
You want to know the difference between a cult and a really successful organization? Cults try to accomplish things at the fringe of society and generally rely on a belief in something that is not provable or real in any meaningful sense of the word. They may have their leaders, much like JoePa has been one of ours, but our deity is not aliens in the tail of a comet or a righteous God wanting of our presence in heaven.
Our diety is a belief that we can accomplish great things by each of use working together and harder than we think we are capable of. Every weekend in the Fall for longer than many of us have been alive, Joe and his teams demonstrated that this belief is not some mirage or unreachable ideal. Rather it is an enduring fact that bears repeating… and Joe repeated it at least 548 times.
If you want to believe that the “cult” is part of the reason the Sandusky scandal happened, that’s your choice (you didn’t quite say this… but the implication is there and others have). That choice is absolutely fucking insulting because it is exactly the kind of thinking that paints everyone at PSU with an “enabler” paint brush and makes us all guilty of one man’s misdeeds. Child molestation happens in probably every town in America (what’s the stat, somewhere over 10% of all children are assaulted?) and many molesters get away with it for a very long time. Our belief in hard work, teamwork, and honesty didn’t enable Sandusky. A couple of bad decisions by people who should have known better did.
I know plenty of non-PSU people that seem to “get it” when it comes to Paterno. Some of them, including my father-in-law, are most assuredly not fans. The same father-in-law that I’m told broke down in tears when he heard Paterno was fired. The destruction of Joe Paterno’s reputation, for many people, felt like a (final?) attack on of a set of ideals that seem to be mostly absent from today’s society. And many of these people have come to recognize that even without Paterno, his ideals will live on as long as we choose to embody them. Those who think we worshiped Paterno, prayed at the altar of Beaver Stadium, and mourn for him because our team might become mediocre don’t “get it” because they don’t understand the real object of our affection. These same people didn’t “get it” when most of the rest of the world couldn’t grasp why we didn’t just fire the old man. It may be isolationist to say everyone else doesn’t “get it”, but them not getting it is not for lack of PSU people trying to get them to understand. Of course, evangilizing is also something that cults do… so there you have it…
we're all in a cult.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 27, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 12 recs
Trying to say we are a "cult" is just another way for saying that we don't understand society's values.
That we somehow have prioritized things differently and incorrectly. I’m not here trying to shun society and its norms. I’m not claiming that I, or we, hold all the true answers. What I’ve advocated is look what was accomplished by the ideals that we’ve chosen to value and believe in. Look at the success and the betterment of millions of lives because of those ideals. This isn’t a gospel, and this doesn’t require faith to believe in it. It’s simply a matter of leading by example, and it’s what Joe has done so well. That’s what people don’t get.
They see Penn State as it stands today. Hell, that’s all I’ve ever really known. I was born in 1985, been a Penn State fan all my life, and the way it stands today is mostly the way I’ve always known it as far back as I can remember. It’s what was accomplished before me that is what these values attest to. Penn State wasn’t always Penn State University, it used to be Penn State cow town. An institution like Penn State doesn’t magically appear in State College, PA. It takes even more effort and hard work to build it there than it does to build it in a city, because it’s much harder to convince people what that area has to offer. But what it offers now, thanks in large part to Paterno and all the people that helped and supported him, is a world class education, world class research, and the ability to learn how to do things the honorable way. If those values make us a cult, I’m not concerned with myself. These are the same ideals that ended the Dark Ages and espoused the Renaissance. They’ve stood the test of time, and thanks to Joe Paterno, they have a place to live far into the future. That is what people “don’t get”. It’s not a black and white argument, it’s not that you’re either in or out. It’s that some people don’t appreciate what is there, and that is a reflection on their values, not ours.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 27, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
What crosses the line into cultdom
is claiming that it’s impossible for those outside the organization to understand. If you don’t do that, you’re probably on the right side of the line. But many here have strayed over to the other side lately.
Many of the people who are attacking Paterno’s inaction in the case of It know all the facts and do, in fact, understand why people love Paterno, despite the bullshit thrown about here by so many. They just have a different opinion on what constitutes a flaw large enough to tarnish a legacy.
I think you're making the definitions too concrete.
There is no real line in the sand that you’re either on one side or the other. You can worship Paterno and not understand any of the values and ideals he possessed or you can hate Paterno and live your life by the same ideals and values he espoused. Membership in the Penn State family is participatory. As evident on this site, you don’t need to have any affiliation to be a part of the community and family. The whole “don’t get” it argument, while coming off as being a black and white issue, never is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if it’s an ignorant opinion, it doesn’t need to be respected. I’ve had several conversations with people who have differing opinions but know the facts. I don’t think they don’t “get it”, but I do think they don’t perceive it the way I do. I’ll be the first person to admit that I’m wrong sometimes and that I don’t know all the answers, so I’m never going to say my opinion is right.
What the argument of the OP seems to be stating is that the people he/she encountered don’t see the things outside of football or the Sandusky scandal that Paterno accomplished. They are focusing on a specific aspect of his life and erasing everything else. It’s undeniable the impact that the man made on the university and millions of people. Some people refuse to acknowledge that at all. Those are the people that don’t “get it”.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 27, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Not most people
Most people in the media acknowledge all the good that Joe did, they just have a different opinion on the bad that he did (or allowed to happen, or didn’t do enough to help stop, etc).
They are still viewed here as ignorant, biased, and not “getting it”.
That’s not a healthy attitude for a community to display.
It's perspective.
I don’t speak for anyone other than myself, and I never intend to. I view a lot of the information put forth by the media as ignorant or biased based on the content of the individual article or report. They most often contain factual inaccuracies and convey speculation as fact in order to reaffirm their narrative. This doesn’t apply to every voice in the media, as through all of this we have seen individuals stand out against the collective voice. Coach Ditka, Coach K, Phil Knight have all spoke out in support of what Paterno has accomplished.
I watched the B1G “Tribute” to Paterno, and I was appalled at the content. A man who spent 62 years at a university, and for the majority of that presentation, the only topic was the final 3 months of his life. Sometimes it’s just not the place for those discussions, and a man’s memorial is not one of them.
Coach Ditka said it best in his remembrance of Paterno: “Class is a hard thing to define, but you know it when you see it.” What I have seen from many members of the media and from many people in general is a complete lack of class. I’ve said the same thing to family as I’m stating right now: if you can’t respect the man that died, at least respect the people that are mourning their loss. A lot of people haven’t shown that respect and that lies at the heart of all the ignorance and bias. I feel disrespected because of it and for the disrespect several members of the media have shown throughout this entire situation. While you might see a statement made such as “they (the media) are ignorant”, it is based on individual accounts. Just as you typically generalize everyone on this site into a collective “they”, those statements are made in the same vain. The only groups that I’ll define are those that have mourned Paterno’s loss and those that haven’t. For those that have mourned, I share in your loss. For those that do not, I’m sorry for what you haven’t lost. You can call me a cultist if you would like or tell me that attitude is unhealthy, but fortunately for me, I don’t define myself based on other people’s perceptions. That was the final lesson that Paterno taught me.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 27, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd for this
if you can’t respect the man that died, at least respect the people that are mourning their loss
and also this
fortunately for me, I don’t define myself based on other people’s perceptions. That was the final lesson that Paterno taught me.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Jan 27, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Personal note to SWHA: your 1985 birth date surprised me.
I’ve thought from the way you articulate thoughts that you are older, more seasoned. Good show. One of the hallmarks of a cult is that you can’t leave. Surely not the case here. If someone wants to ignore their Penn State background, they can.
Think you might want to not ‘denigrate’ Penn State cow town. Some of the pioneers will not take kindly to that designation being as lesser thing. After all, it did become a full-fledged University in 1955. Enrollments were smaller then as the population of college-age was coming from Great Depression years’ birth rates, but still in the 12,000 range. I didn’t learn success with honor, or Penn State pride, or being respectful from coach Paterno. I learned it from my own Dad and my own Mother, neither of whom went to Penn State (tho my elder brother did on the GI Bill). In case you haven’t guessed, my class was ’56. Wow, was it a “depressing,” tho proud, day when I realized my class had moved into the pioneer section.
I can’t be accused of being a football fanatic as went to one game since ‘56. It rained and I think we lost. Heresy of heresy, I don’t even watch most of the games, but always want PSU to win whatever might be the contest. I do get it. Penn State will continue. We’ve just been blessed to have among us a man with unusual talent for bringing out the best in others.
by be4time on Jan 28, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Thank you.
The contents of your post are exactly what I’m learning now. Penn State was a great institution before Paterno and will continue to be one now that he is gone. It’s difficult for me sometimes to make the distinction between what was Paterno’s accomplishment and what was a characteristic of the University as the two have been entwined my entire life. There are so many great men that helped to build the foundations of Penn State and set the environment for all the successes we have accomplished, not only athletically, but academically as well.. I have had the honor to meet Nobel Laureates and industry leaders that set the academic values of our degrees that I could never find anywhere else. While Paterno’s success helped to build the notoriety of Penn State and brought our values and ideals into the national spotlight, the qualities he epitomized already dwelled in Happy Valley. This is why I have absolute certainty that we will continue our tradition of success. We weren’t built on football wins, we were built on doing things the right way. The tradition will continue.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 28, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think that by cult
they mean the “personality cult” many PSU alumni built up around Joe Paterno, and which Paterno allowed to be built.
I feel so much better now.
I’m only part of a “personality” cult, not a REAL one. I’ll sleep so much better tonight, knowing we are not being compared with the Jonestown crew or a group like that.
Still, I wish I would have refused to sign the enrollment forms when Joe keep pressuring me to join. It was the lure of the 10% discount on the JoePa-endorsed hot dogs that caused me to sin . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 29, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
I love the argument that Paterno allowed people to worship him
What was he supposed to do, start acting like an asshole? If he is humble and tells people not to pay attention to him, people like him more. If he shows any personality, people like him more. What is one to do?
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
OP here.
When I mentioned IT in my OP, I meant to reference the people that only see Joe for the last two months, and not for the last 61 years. There are people that disagree with Joe’s handling of the situation, but still remain committed to Success with Honor. They “get it.” There are people that love Paterno for the 409 wins, but couldn’t really care less about the principle of the Grand Experiment. They don’t.
I have one story as to people outside of PSU “getting it.” Over the winter break, I went to visit one of my old high school teachers. She grew up in NEPA, but was a Notre Dame fan all of her life. During my high school career, she never said a nice word about Penn State’s football program. However, when I talked with her last month, she explained to me how while she didn’t support the team, she had nothing but the utmost respect for how he turned his players into men. Here was a woman that had no prerogative to support Paterno, yet I would say that she “got it.”
by nickrapak on Jan 27, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
M1EK
From one die-hard alum to another:
We all feel pain right now and we should all have each others’ back. I disagree with a lot of your opinions on here and the way you present them, but that doesn’t stop us from sharing some of the same wonderful experiences separately, loving the same great school and mourning a man who did a lot of good. Trust me when I say that I do not take the things you say personally, and I hope that everyone on here can try to do the same. Whether you want to remember Joe the same way as I do or anyone else does, is certainly your business, but I don’t think he would want alumni turning on each other over anything, especially if he were the subject of debate.
May No Act…
by cs93 on Jan 27, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Thanks.
Well said, and I can agree with all of it. I think Joe would be appalled at the quotes in the other thread that are now closed, and I’m appalled that the mods have let it happen and that so many people see no problem with it.
Rec from me cs93.
Spot on.
If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.
"These efforts to define the world as "you either ‘get it’" "or you don’t" is the kind of thing cults engage in to wall themselves off from the outside world. It’s not healthy.
Hell yeah I want a wall to keep me apart from the outside world. A big opaque one that’s electrified and has bard wire. And you’re on the other side of it along with the rest.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Franco Harris:
"If I had to choose today between the moral integrity and character of Joe Paterno and the politicians and commentators criticizing him, I would pick Joe Paterno, hands down, no contest every time."
by showtime on Jan 30, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Most people will never "get it"
about anything. They are too self serving and self centered to think of much outside themselves. Thank goodness most of us had a great example of someone who did “get it” to try and follow.
by FB6244 on Jan 27, 2012 11:12 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
What's not to get?
It is metaphysically impossible for a someone like Paterno to allow the suffering of children knowing others were negligent and it was left to him alone to do something about it.
why people are sad at the death of someone who covered up for a child molester
When people say this to me, I usually start off with nobody is accused of covering up for a child molester. Not even Curley and Shultz are accused of this. So if you believe that Paterno “covered up for a child molester”, you are basing that opinion opinion on absolutely zero information. In essence, that allegation has no basis in fact or law.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 27, 2012 1:14 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Yes. This is the counterpart of
“Joe DID go to the police!”, though. Equally ignorant, equally unsupportable by adults with basic common sense.
If you attack peoples’ ignorance on what Paterno did in one sense, you are inviting counterattacks in the other.
You clearly believe in a "race-to-the-bottom" style of discussion
if that hasn’t been abundantly clear yet. And that’s fine, but I have fundamental philosophical differences that prevent me from really being able to engage in conversation with you. I think a lot of other people are figuring this out as well.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 27, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You're not helping.
Address the point or don’t respond, please. This metaattacking you’re doing is far worse than what you think I’m doing, from an honest philosophical point of view.
It was really only an attack
because I obviously think my ethic on discourse does more good than yours, but it wasn’t meant to score points against you or anything. I’ve just finally come to pinpoint why we’re incompatible.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Jan 27, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And I, too
I believe my ethic on discourse (actually attacking arguments rather than attacking you) does more good than yours does, too.
You don't think
that calling someone ignorant in the first line of your response is a personal attack?
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
NJC, you obviously don't know the rules.
(1) By definition, nothing M1EK says to/about anyone or any group is not a personal attack.
(2) Anything said back to him is, again by definition, disagreeable and wrong.
(3) There are two stock responses from M1EK: “I can’t respond in the same way you people attack me; therefore I (and my points) are better than you(rs).” and/or “That’s uncivil.”
Obey, and all is good . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 28, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
you forgot the third stock response
“I don’t do homework assignments” in response to asking him to back up any of his points with any sort of proof or fact or evidence of any sort.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Disingenuous
I said “just as ignorant as”; following through on the implication of the poster to whom I was responding, who obviously believes people who say “Paterno covered up child rape” are ignorant (or malicious).
Nice try, though. Shows the bankruptcy of your arguments.
What argument?
Point to the “bankrupt” argument I made. I thought you were comparing his statement to the “ignorant” straw man argument you like to throw around. It seems I misunderstood you, I apologize.
But next time don’t put words in my mouth, either. I guess now you’ll think of me when you refer to the people “in the other thread” arguing whatever it is you imagine I was arguing.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
....and welcome to the world of Arguing with M1EK.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 30, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't understand what you are saying.
You keep putting other peoples arguments in my posts. I can logically expect a counter-attack to an argument I’ve made, but it wholly unreasonable to be questioned on an argument I didn’t make.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
You're being disingenuous
because I know you’re a smart guy.
Again, this is not a two person conversation. There are many other people involved, and far more reading, and it is absolutely relevant to point out that the primary argument made by Paterno apologists is just as ignorant as the argument you cited from Paterno attackers.
And I guess
In my opinion the volume and quantity of inaccurate things being stated against Paterno is much greater than inaccurate things supporting him. And very few of those inaccurate things are coming from me.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Jan 27, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I've seen inaccuracy on both sides of the fence...
and the only meaningful discussions I’ve had with anyone have come from people who have actually processed the facts or who admit, forthrightly, that they don’t know that much about what actually happened. M1EK is literally the only person I “know” who seems to actually know most of the details and who I still cannot seem to find very much common ground with.
And really, I think I’m done defending Joe Paterno and his legacy. People will remember whatever they like about him. I’m sure, no matter that I think he was a fall guy, that I’ll never be able to think about him without thinking about the Sandusky mess. And anyone who hasn’t been convinced by the tributes to this man that this world has lost a great one will simply find my words hollow, ignorant, and blind.
The legal system will be dealing with the rest of the accused in a formal and controlled manner consistent with our ideal of innocent until proven guilty. And they either will or won’t get what’s coming to them.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 27, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
the problem as I see it
is that a lot of the “JoePa apologists” remain open to the possibility that there was indeed a cover up and JoePa knew more. They just point out that there are alternate explanations as well that are just as valid.
Then there are some people who think that only the possibility they believe in could be correct and that everyone else is ignorant.
I personally don’t find that latter route very constructive (and yes, there are people on both sides who have that sentiment, but I am mainly implying one specific person. I don’t want to name that person for fear of being called uncivil, though).
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
False narrative, again
I have never, ever, ever said that only the possibility I believe in could be correct. I have also never said Joe participated in a cover-up, just that some of the apologist arguments are as ridiculous as those who say he did.
Joe’s sins were of the clueless and careless variety – omission, not comission. Smaller than those that appear most likely committed by Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and possibly the BOT. But large enough to require they be faced instead of swept under the rug.
Stop spreading malicious falsehoods and you might win more arguments by means other than appealing to the mob.
perhaps you don't flat out say that,
you just strongly imply that anyone else who says that is wrong, or an apologist, an idiot, etc.
Yes, there are idiots on both side of the argument. Just because you find idiots on the opposite side doesn’t mean that your specific position is now all of a sudden idiot proof.
Joe’s sins
werecould have been of the clueless and careless variety – omission, not comission. Smaller than those that appear most likely committed by Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and possibly the BOT. But large enough to require they be faced instead of swept under the rug, if indeed they exist.
To commit a moral sin, one must have intent. If there’s no intent, then there’s a mistake (one recognized in hindsight), but not a sin.
Stop spreading malicious falsehoods and you might win more an argument.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You probably won't believe this
but it’s the goddamn truth:
most of the people who know the facts and disagree with the apologist narrative have stopped posting. I’m too stubborn, so far, to follow suit.
who exactly has stopped posting that shared those views?
or is that considered homework? This is part of your M.O., you make a claim that isn’t supported by anything other than your gut feeling. you then claim that to be “the goddamn truth”. You then respond to anyone who disagrees with you, or asks for anything to support that claim, calling them some sort of evil teacher/educator trying to give you homework (though now I see some of where your disdain for JoePa comes from, you oppose anyone who asks that others put in effort).
There doesn’t seem to be an actual drop off in people commenting on these posts, or on posts on other boards. I recall a while ago you made this same exact claim about how all your brethren have stopped posting, or whatever. I then made a poll just to take a temperature of people’s attitudes. Sure, the poll was on this site (therefore an inherent bias), but if these people really existed (though from my experience with the internet, one side of an argument doesn’t just magically disappear. Typically people fall out of it, but it isn’t like one side drops out at a higher rate unless there’s a good reason to explain that. Stubborn people tend to exist in equal proportions), the results of that poll didn’t support your claim.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not going to believe it because I have experiences outside of this board.
I have talked to a lot of people and most who swear Joe is guilty are incapable of listening to other possibilities, which may also explain why they frequently support their position with outright misinformation. These are, by and large, the same people that have “stopped posting” and are probably on to the next hot topic in the news where they can play judge and jury based on shoddy summaries of handed out by the media.
I’m happy as hell to have my viewpoints challenged. Honestly I am. It’s how I grow as a person and how I learn (as a scientist I have to be constantly open to new evidence and having my thoughts challenged). That said, I refuse to have my thoughts challenged by someone who doesn’t have the facts straight in formulating their own opinion. That would be like me, as a scientist, allowing a freshman undergrad to tell me what my data says based on something they read in the National Enquirer and without actually having analyzed my data.
I’ve given you the only credit I can… you seem to be pretty clear on the events that happened and you still hold Joe responsible. I am certain you aren’t the only one and I never said that. You just seem to be the loudest and most persistent.
Neither of our positions on this are likely to change without new evidence… and new evidence hasn’t come out (and it may never at this point, regarding Paterno). So, I’m done arguing with you.
by BNittsDeMilo on Jan 29, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Hahaha...
“You’re not helping. Address the point or don’t respond, please.”
by janthonygomes on Jan 27, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, this really needs to stop.
What is your point? You obviously have made up your mind that Paterno is at fault. This is getting to be like arguing politics or abortion. Once a mind is made, there is no changing it.
Somehow you think his actions at the time weren’t enough is based on your 20/20 view of the situation after everything has been collected, analyzed, and then presented (fictitiously).
What none of us have, including you, is being there at the time with the information (and only that information) Paterno was presented with. Only being in that exact spot will give you the perspective to judge Paterno from a moral standpoint. I’ve tried putting myself there and I’m finding it tough to find any egregious fault.
What I believe is that if he knew then what he knows (or thinks to know now), he would have done things differently. I don’t see that as a moral failing. It is the same decision making process with better, or more complete information. I think that is the point being missed by people who say he is claiming guilt by saying “I should have done more” without the opening clause “With the benefit of hindsight”.
It has been my experience that moral compasses do not swing greatly. Once they are pointed, they remain in that direction. Up until that time, we have had 50+ years of evidence to understand where Paterno’s moral compass pointed. Only a wild swing of that compass would support what many are accusing him of.
by SilverFoxx on Jan 27, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Not true.
Paterno himself, to Sally Jenkins, said he did not follow up. And he says he thinks he should have. He said why he thought he didn’t, but even Jenkins found his explanation shaky.
There are lots of ways to disagree civilly about what happened, ways that are not based in misrepresentations like “Joe DID go to the police” or “we don’t know whether Joe followed up”. I suggest that the people who aren’t willing to do so have serious problems.
Just a note
Both McQueary and Curley testified (under oath) that there was follow-up with Paterno. You can debate whether Paterno’s memory of 10 year old events is better than that of McQuearys and Curley’s, but I think it is still reasonable to we don’t know the specifics of that follow-up.
by dontcallmescooter on Jan 27, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
also
Paterno might have been saying that after those initial follow ups, he didn’t follow up further, or follow up enough.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You guys are forgetting
1. Curley is under indictment for perjury.
2. Paterno was just interviewed in the friendliest of possible venues and couldn’t construct a plausible argument that he followed up. Sally Jenkins said he wishes he had.
Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
You guys are welcome to your own opinions. Do not expect me to sit idly by as you attempt to construct your own facts which are in direct opposition to the words of the man himself.
1) Actually pretty much every time I’ve pointed out that Curley has said that I’ve also pointed out that you have to take his testimony with a grain of salt, due to the perjury trial. By the way, what will you say if/when Curley is acquitted of the perjury charge?
1-b) McQueary is the entire basis of the charges for which Paterno is being held morally culpable. Are you saying that because if Curley (possibly/allegedly) lied once that everything he said must be a lie? Are you also holding McQueary to this same standard? If so, then your argument here falls apart
2) Friendly environment or not, this still relies on JoePa remembering every action that occurred ~10 years ago in a case he apparently didn’t think was that important at the time (otherwise he would have done more) while essentially on his death bed. But it is reasonable to assume that Paterno is telling the truth here. Still, that doesn’t make his inaction at the time an immoral act at the time. Also, his response about discomfort/inexperience/reluctance to be seen as interfering, shouldn’t be completely dismissed as inadequate. People are holding Paterno to a higher standard than they would virtually anyone else if they said, “I reported it to the proper people and had faith that they handled the situation appropriately.”
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Again. Put yourself there
Why would he feel compelled to follow up? Paterno reported the issue to two supposedly competent, experienced and well compensated professionals who’s job it is to handle such matters. If Paterno had good working relationships with both guys in the past, what in his mind would give him doubt to the point that he would follow up?
If what you are convicting Paterno of is the standard of conduct, then there is no hope for anyone to do any job. If any individual is ultimately responsible for the conduct of your direct reports as well as your boss, then the system is deeply flawed. I have no problem laying blame at Paterno’s feet if he in fact was wrong, but in all fairness, let’s make sure the standard of behavior is reasonable.
by SilverFoxx on Jan 27, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you for taking up this argument.
I personally feel like I’ve exhausted my ‘argumentative capital’ with M1EK (I mean – just look at my sig line).
Maybe I’ve just reached my limit of frustration at arguing with a brick wall, but I still have hope that someone else can talk some sense in to the wall.
Fight the good fight, SilverFoxx…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Jan 27, 2012 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Indeed, I'm done
M1EK is judging Paterno’s conduct from the view of knowing everything we know now, not from the basis of what he knew at the time. He is saying that the follow up he did (talk to McQuery and talk to Curley) was inadequate. It’s only inadequate if you assume he fully understood the nature of the crime, which he could not have because McQuery himself didn’t, and if you assume that he has reason to think that Curley or McQuery weren’t being honest with him when they said it was handled.
In Britain, they call this kind of illogical argument “moving the goal posts.”
But just for fun, I’ll explain it for the 100th time.
What Joe knew at the time was that McQuery saw something upsetting that may or may not have been a crime. Joe trusted Schultz and Curley to handle it properly. Curley talked to Sandusky. Schultz and Curley had a more complete conversation with McQuery. That’s all any investigator could do. That doesn’t mean they did it as well as a professional detective would, but it’s not “they did nothing” as is continually alleged. Schultz was the only one of the group that had heard about the 1998 report and he had to have known that the reason he was in the loop on this at all was because he was the police chief’s boss. If he knew he wasn’t the right person to handle it, it was his job to explain that to everyone else. He did not. He investigated it on his own. And yet he decided there wasn’t even enough evidence to file a formal police report. I don’t see how he came to that conclusion, but he says he thought CYS was aware of this. Not sure why he would think that.
But either way, Joe only having a sketchy report of something that McQuery thought he saw, was told by McQuery – the only witness – that the situation was ok. If McQuery didn’t want to go to the police, there was no point in Joe going to the police, because all they would do is tell him to send McQuery to them. Curley told Joe their plan was to just keep Sandusky from bringing kids around. We don’t know the details of that conversation, but given that Joe knew that McQuery had told Curley and Schultz the whole story and that Joe trusted Curley and Schultz (with good reason, at that point) he had every reason to infer that, if that was their plan, then the situation was as handled as it possibly could be. And Spanier signed off on that plan. Why would Joe contradict Spanier?
And its the “as handled as it can be” is important. It’s quite possible that these guys all came away from this with deep suspicions about Sandusky but not enough proof. They still should have had the real cops investigate it, but their actions are completely consistent with a finding of “suspicious but not proveable.” They did what they could to keep Sandusky out of their locker room thereby shutting down the one “place of opportunity” that they had any control over. It’s not much, but it’s a good step. They also told Second Mile who should have figured out they needed to do something more. They did not.
They may or may not have told CYS. If they did and CYS forgot, then all of this is their fault, 100%. If Schultz really thinks they did, but didn’t because he’s incompetent or suffers from DID, then it’s his fault but it’s not malicious, just stupid. If he’s just lying, then what the hell are we blaming Joe for when the guy he trusted to handle this turns out to be a brazen liar? Those are the three options with Schultz and none of them put blame on Joe. The AG and grand jury seemed to understand that clearly. Why can’t everyone else?
Joe is not Henry VIII. He can’t just have a guy thrown in jail based on suspicion. And even if McQuery felt certain that Sandusky was a child molester, he knew that, if he couldn’t prove it, he couldn’t go around accusing Sandusky of it publicly. A) because that would ruin the man and the Second Mile, so he better have proof (Which, by the way, is what ESPN says about Bernie Fine even though the proof they had was way better than what McQuery had) ( B) If it ever came down to just McQuery’s word over Sandusky’s, absent all of this other evidence that McQuery knew nothing about at that time, the public would believe Sandusky, the well loved assistant and near-saint rather than the young ex-QB who was never all that good and was kind of a dick in high school. McQuery knew that too.
I admit, when I first heard about this, I was not in Joe’s corner. I knew it wasn’t a cover-up because of all the people who knew about, but I really did think that Joe must have had a senior moment. But after understanding who GJRs are written and hearing the testimony in the preliminary hearing, the only mistake I can see that Joe made was trusting the wrong people. Even if he had followed up as M1EK seems to think was essential, Schultz would have just told him “it’s as handled as it’s ever going to be.” Do you really think that Schultz thought “oh, if Joe calls me a second time, then I’ll get off my ass and do my job and prevent child rape, but his first call and McQuery’s testimony isn’ t enough for me to do that. I need further prodding.” Seriously? Just think that through. This is not a 10 year old being asked to clean up his room. This is a guy who rose to being VP of a Big Ten university. If he didn’t grasp the situation after McQuery talked to him and Curley talked to Sandusky, there is absolutely nothing Joe could do to make him grasp the situation.
Besides, as Joe said himself, if he did keep pushing, he would appear to be trying to get Sandusky busted and given the well-known rift between Joe and Sandusky (well known in State College and in PSU circles, but totally unknown by all the assholes in the press who repeat the “heir apparent” canard) he didn’t want to influence the investigation that way.
As for “I wish I’d done more,” most in the press I’ve seen conveniently drop off the “with the benefit of hindsight.” Let me tell you a story about that. An old high school friend of mine killed himself last year. He was more a friend of a friend, but I was still pretty shaken by the news. It was shocking. Nobody saw it coming. He was a well-liked doctor and had two kids. The tough thing is that none of my friends had been able to talk to him in years. For reasons we don’ t understand, his wife apparently forbid him from talking to his old friends or he had decided to cut off communication. We’re not sure. With the benefit of hindsight, we all wish we’d tried harder to reach him. We wish we’d talked more to his brother about it, who had more of a clue what was going on. We wish we’d driven to wear he lived to just say “hey, is everything ok?” We could have done all of these things but we had no reason to think it was necessary. But now we do and it’s too late.
I imagine everyone has stories like that. At least Joe is willing to accept it.
So that’s it. The rest of you will have to pick up the torch of arguing with all the haters on the internet.
[drops mic on stage. Feedback. walks away]
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 29, 2012 2:16 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
rjm, do you sleep?
After these months of reading and thinking, I’ve evolved to the very same conclusions.
I’d like to add one more thought…
The laws for reporting suspected child abuse are designed to get the case out of amateur hands and into the hands of law enforcement and child welfare professionals. These laws are aimed at protecting the privacy and identity of the victims, as well as the integrity of any legal action. Joe reported up the chain of command to someone who could launch an investigation. With regard to follow-up (beyond what he did with McQueary), Joe had no right to know the details or status of an investigation, as he was neither a witness nor a victim.
In spite of the overheated rhetoric, I believe that demanding action beyond the law is not only wrong, but ultimately unhelpful to any future victims.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
I don't sleep normal hours when I travel for work
I’m in Florida today, which isn’t as great as it sounds given that I’m in a windowless room in a convention center that looks on the inside like every other convention center.
But glad I could be of service.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 29, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
M1EK is judging Paterno’s conduct from the view of knowing everything we know now, not from the basis of what he knew at the time
No, I am not doing that at all. You are doing what is known as “putting words in somebody’s mouth”, as long as we’re throwing around argumentative tropes.
I said Paterno should have gone to Curley and Schultz and asked whatever happened with that kid and Sandusky – based on nothing more than what we know he knew at the time – “fondling, something of a sexual nature” and a very distraught report from McQueary.
I have also pointed out that asking McQueary (the low man on the totem pole) later on if he was OK with the apparent lack of action is not sufficient, as McQueary is in precisely the role there where he would be logically afraid to follow up (whether he still should have is a matter of opinion, but he clearly had a lot more to lose than Paterno and a lot less power to actually make anything happen).
And, for what seems like the hundredth time,
Paterno did not follow up about the investigation. He said so himself, to Sally Jenkins. You aren’t paying very close attention to the actual facts of the case.
You are welcome to your own opinion. You are not welcome to your own set of facts.
“You aren’t paying very close attention to the actual facts of the case.”
Neither are you, in ignoring Curley’s testimony. That is another set of facts. Just because you choose to dismiss it doesn’t mean that others are wrong in including that in their own set of facts (which, actually, they are very welcome to, whether you like it or not).
What if Sally Jenkins followed up with, “what about Curley’s testimony that he did indeed follow up with you?” What if he responded, “oh…well that. Yeah, he did follow up with me that one time, but after that I never went back to him to follow up because there wasn’t any new information about the case at the time, and he just told me what I already knew from McQueary: that Sandusky was in an inappropriate situation with a child, but that there was no legal proof of any wrong doing, and that they had no lead on who the kid was, but that they were going to ban him from bringing kids onto campus in the future. Since McQueary seemed to have no issue participating in Second Mild events with Sandusky and Curley and the rest of the university administration still dealt with him I just assumed that everything was fine. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight that wasn’t enough and I wish I followed up more and asked pointed questions, but at the time, based on what I was told I was satisfied, and thought that any further questions would have been seen as trying to interfere with the investigation one way or the other.”
Yes, I know that is a hypothetical situation, you don’t have to point that out and claim I’m making up facts. For the record, everyone, these are not facts, they are just possible scenarios based on the facts at hand.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
Please show me
WHERE in the Jenkins interview Joe says he didn’t follow up.
I’ll wait.
As you say, you’re not welcome to your own set of facts.
well, he does admit it, somewhat
in the article he said
How Sandusky, 67, allegedly evaded detection by state child services, university administrators, teachers, parents, donors and Paterno himself remains an open question. "I wish I knew," Paterno said. "I don’t know the answer to that. It’s hard." Almost as difficult for Paterno to answer is the question of why, after receiving a report in 2002 that Sandusky had abused a boy in the shower of Penn State’s Lasch Football Building, and forwarding it to his superiors, he didn’t follow up more aggressively.
"I didn’t know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was," he said. "So I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did. It didn’t work out that way."
Emphasis mine. What M1EK posted a bit above came from the Q&A she had a couple days later:
Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
From the original article it makes it seem like there was follow up, but not aggressive enough to the point where he asked, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” partly because he was uncomfortable, partly because he was unsure, and partly because he didn’t want to be seen as interfering.
Personally I find a distinction between “not following up” and “not following up more aggressively”, but I could see how others might not.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
Why be compelled to follow up?
Because nothing happened to Sandusky – he was still working with his charity in which he had access to kids, and was still hanging around the program.
If you care at all about the kid who (was reported to you) was raped, you would have to at a bare minimum go back to those guys and say “seriously, what happened?”
If then they say “we cannot comment” or “the law prevents us from doing anything”, then that’s one thing. But, see above, he didn’t do that. Period.
Why be compelled to not follow up?
Because nothing happened to Sandusky – he was still working with his charity in which he had access to kids, and was still hanging around the program.
If you care at all about the man who (was reported to you) was seen naked in a shower, possibly in a sexual situation with a young boy, you would have to, at a bare minimum, go back to the witness and say, “are you ok with how the situation was handled?”
If then they say that they are, then that’s one thing. But, see above, he did do that. Period.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This is the thing I don't understand.
There was absolutely no indication to Paterno that the appropriate action was not taken.
I’ve seen the same response from M1EK when I posted all the facts of the situation to Facebook (and also made the point that Corbett gave $2 million to the Second Mile despite being aware or being involved in at least 4 grand jury investigations against Sandusky, which surprisingly NOBODY mentioned in their responses). The response usually ends with “if children are getting abused, you need to pursue it.” The problem is that statement can only be made in hindsight. Nobody is saying it’s ok to accept inadequate measures in response to a crime being reported, or that it’s acceptable to drop an issue when no actions were taken. The case that is being made is that based on every source of information he had, it is very reasonable for Paterno to have considered the matter settled. He was only aware of one allegation, he was told by the people investigating the matter that Sandusky was not allowed to bring children on campus anymore and those were acceptable measures from their perspective. He followed up with McQueary who also was approving of the measures taken. Further, by lack of any response we know of, McQueary’s father also found the actions taken to be acceptable. How is it logical for the person with the least information (Paterno) to challenge the outcome when all those people who were more informed of the incident than he was? This is not to say he couldn’t have followed up, but what justification would he have had to do so, especially without any insight into what he was told by Curley and McQueary regarding what they considered to have actually happened?
The only way that you can really consider Paterno’s actions inadequate is by focusing solely on the outcome with the benefit of hindsight and refusing to put yourself in the actual situation (and not the one in the grand jury presentment).
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Jan 30, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Having read M1EK's posts since Ive got here, though I do not agree with them, its abundently clear that..
1. Joe should have known that Schultz, even though we have testimony of McQuery’s and the UPPD Police Chief at the time referring to Schultz as the cops and as “my boss”, was not the cops (even though it is quite possible Joe thought the same thing).
2. Joe should have known that Curley, Schultz, and Spanier were incapable of doing their jobs.
3. As too follow up, Joe should have known that McQuery, in his position on the coaching staff at the time, when Joe asked him if he was OK, Joe should have known that McQuery would be afraid to tell him the truth if he was OK with everything, basically, he should have known the McQuery was telling him “what he thought he wanted to hear.”
4. That because was Curley is charged with perjury, his testimony that he followed up with Joe, is a lie.
Thats alot of should have knowns to hold someone to. If thats the case, you would think if Joe was supposed to have this remarkable foresight, Penn State should have won alot more National Championships since Joe knew what the other team was going to do before they did.
There is one thing unmistakably clear with our dealings here on BSD. When every little bit of new information comes out, most of us see at reasonably as vindication points for Joe. Where others, just take it, add the “should haves” to it, and use them as points to further vilify Joe. To each their own.
by BRJ75 on Jan 30, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
On the subject of things we don't understand...
The absolute conviction that more action = better for the victims = meeting a higher moral standard.
I’ve seen remarks from child welfare and law enforcement professionals that this is not necessarily the case, but I’d really like to know more—not just the opinions of the media and general public. While it may make people feel better to think “if only Paterno had done more, many victims would have been protected,” it seems there is actually some downside to going outside the prescribed channels. If someone does go beyond what is required by law and policy, and in doing so violates the privacy of the victims, or the integrity of any legal action, is that really better?
I’d really like to hear more from the professionals in this area . . . can anybody here provide additional insight?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
from what I've read
all the experts have essentially said that what Joe/McQueary did was either the right thing to do, or at the very least the “normal” thing to do. Of course what I’ve read is possibly biased because the people who would write such an article/make such a statement would be trying to defend Paterno, while any expert on the other side would possibly just think, “well, everyone already knows Joe Paterno did the wrong thing”. (also, I’m more likely to read things linked on here and on facebook, where the posters are more biased) And of course in the comments to such articles/statements there is often the, "you are enabling a pedophile enabler…so that’s always cool to say that about child welfare experts.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 30, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
not equal at all
And if you can’t see that, there’s no hope.
First of all, it wrongly assumes it was primarily Joe’s responsbility, rather than McQuery’s, to go to the police. Second, it assumes that it was Joe’s job to understand that talking to Schultz wasn’t the right way to go. Nobody has asked Joe “why did you call Schultz rather than the regular police with uniforms and what not.” Joe’s lawyer asserted that Schultz had the power to conduct investigations, it should be noted. McQuery testified to the same thing and if you’re going to start saying McQuery isn’t credible, then this whole thing collapses. It is clear that Joe thought he had the power to do something, otherwise Joe wouldn’t have called him.
The distance between the truth and “Joe covered up a child rape” is far greater than the distance between talking to Schultz and talking to a regular cop.
by reedjohnmiller on Jan 29, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Bullshit.
“Schultz WAS the cops” is completely false. He took no oath; wears no badge or uniform. The rest of the world has long since concluded this – if you keep pushing this as not that far from the truth, there is no hope for you.
It’s just as false as “Paterno covered up child rape”.
reading comprehension: you should learn how it is done
unless you are referring to a completely different post than what reedjohnmiller said, because he is conceding that Schultz isn’t a cop. What he is implying is that the difference between whatever actually happened and “Joe covered up a child rape” is MUCH greater than the difference between a real cop and the role Schultz had (or was perceived to have by Paterno and/or McQueary).
This is one of those instances where people are pointing out where you are making a strawman argument. If you want to ignore that, it’s fine. Actually it isn’t fine, it is ignorant and wrong, but there’s not really anything anyone here can do about that.
by The JuggerNitt on Jan 29, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Question
If you have a major problem with a company, do you:
A) Go to someone on the board of directors, who you happen to know, and who has handled major issues in the past, although they are not a direct employee of the company
or
B) Call customer service.
I realize that this is infinitely more serious. To my mind, if I hear that an employee of mine may/may not have seen something sexual, I go as high up as I can to make sure it gets taken care of.
Was that right? In hindsight, no. But not because of Joe’s actions.
by iamkatemcg on Jan 29, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The coverup charge is tossed around like a Frisbee
These types of fact-free “facts” get thrown around so easily. (Hey thanks, media!) And they say “we” don’t get it. What, we don’t get fairy tales and lazy memes? Every time I read “Paterno was a god on campus who knew everything,” or “Paterno knew about all the raping going on for years,” etc., I now hear that monotone computer voice from the old Star Trek reading it out. “Com-pu-ter work-ing…Joe is an en-a-bler…”
The latest one I’ve enjoyed so much is the “What if it were Paterno’s GRANDSON in the shower, you Joe’s-town Kool-Aid drinkers!?” Yeah! I suspect the answer they’re looking for is he darn well would have called up the Governor, that Saturday morning, and told him to get his best men on it. He would have ordered Schweiker to call in the National Guard or the Seals or maybe a few hundred storm troopers and a honey badger or two. Then he would have gone over to Sandusky’s house in camo and with a chain saw and a few garbage bags (double-ply).
I have a question for Mr. I. Woulda: what if it were your grandfather who was in Joe’s shoes? Compare and contrast how clairvoyant ol’ Grandpap would be when MM stammered his way through telling him what he thinks he maybe sort of saw. Are we talking two chainsaws now? A Dwight Schrute crossbow? ‘Cos I"m sure he’d handle it far better than that dummy (or coverup artist, whatever suits the fantasy) Joe. Fun game, huh?
by Jitterbug on Jan 28, 2012 3:00 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
people who aren’t willing to do so have serious problems
I would rather have those than the ones you possess.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 27, 2012 6:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Reply fail
Was directed at the post of 4:39 pm today (Friday).
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 27, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
ALL. THE. BUNNIES.
If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.
Thanks.
If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.
All this arguing
Is getting us nowhere. In Jay’s speech at the memorial service, he talked about his Dad’s reaction when responding to Bill Bladdey’s belief that he won the singing performance..
“Do you believe you won, Joe asked? Yes, Bill said. Well, that’s all you need.”
Joe had a unique understanding of handling situations that you can’t control. During his final 3 months he faced a situation where everything he had built, everything he had stood for, seemed to be torn to the ground overnight. Yet, he never lashed out, and according to his own family’s accounts, he died with a clear conscious.
True to his own words, Joe believed he had won. Sure, he regretted his inaction, but who wouldn’t after learning about the alleged consequences? Regardless of your opinion on his moral obligations, it’s irrefutable that Joe had a positive impact on millions of Penn Staters, who are all furthering that impact on a daily basis.
Every story I hear about Joe Paterno, my spirit is further uplifted. I was lucky enough to chat with Mark Robinson after the service on Thursday, and his personal accounts with Joe were amazing to hear about. I strive, every day, to live up to this standard that was put forth in the Grand Experiment. With all that in mind, who cares what anyone else thinks?
I know that I have won for knowing and believing in Joe Paterno. We have all won for learning from his legacy. At this point, It’s fruitless to argue with people that are unwavering in putting an asterisk to Joe’s Legacy. I, for one, will be adopting the lesson Cefalo put forth in his JoePa story. Each day, we wake up, and we can either get better or get worse, because you can’t just stay the same. Which is it gonna be?
I choose to get better.
by Cadderly18 on Jan 28, 2012 2:58 AM EST reply actions 11 recs
We're a community, not a cult
First of all, the term “cult” doesn’t really mean anything anymore to scholars of this sort of thing because it’s so overused, but the main components of a cult (as opposed to other religious groups) is that they’re all encompassing and totally demanding. Members of a cult are heavily discouraged or prevented from leaving and are expected to commit all of their time and, usually, money to the cause. That doesn’t describe the typical church where people come and go as they want to nor does it describe people who admire Joe Paterno.
The people who don’t “get it,” i’m afraid, don’t get it because they have no idea what being part of a community is all about and how it leads one to develop genuine love for people you’ve never actually met based on shared values and admiration.
I don’t believe anyone here has ever claimed that only Penn State people are capable of getting it. If they do, they may be wrong. It depends on what they mean
There are two levels of getting it; there’s getting the idea of a community like this in general and then there’s getting what Penn State is about in particular.
If you haven’t been a long-time fan of Penn State then no matter how sympathetic you are, you’re not going to fully “get it.” If you don’t have a lot of memories of being with your friends and family watching PSU football than PSU football is never going to evoke the emotions that it does for us. That’s just the nature of culture. It’s like me trying to understand Canadians feelings about winning the 1972 Summit Series or understand why Scandinavians willingly eat lutefisk during certain celebrations. I get it on an intellectual level, but I can never feel what they they feel about it. I don’t have the connected memories.
The other level of getting it is this general idea of being part of a community, just not the PSU community. On that level, a lot of people “get it.” I’ve recently talked to a few Canadians and some people from New England who say that they too have regional sporting/cultural icons that mean a lot to them so it does make sense to them. Joe is somewhat unique in that he was there so long and, unlike most legendary coaches, died soon after he stopped coaching so he has a connection to both the old fans and the young ones that few sporting figures do, so Joe is unique in a lot of ways, but he is not the first or last person to be admired and cherished by a big group of people. And not the only coach to do so either. There’s no question that Alabama fans of a certain age can sort of relate to our current situation and there are UNC fans who say “I can remember exactly where I was when I heard Dean Smith was retiring.” If DS had died on the job, imagine the impact that would have had. Imagine the lines that would turn out for a viewing if Coach K retired and died three months later – smaller than at PSU, because Duke is a smaller fan base, but it wouldn’t be totally different.
Finally, this thing about “you’re saying we shouldn’t talk about the scandal” is a straw-man. Nobody is saying that.
They’re saying one or both of two things A) for all the reasons mentioned, the evidence shows that Joe didn’t do anything unethical so it’s a moot point and continuing to say that Joe “drove” the scandal or whatever is false and just slander. But, obviously, insofar as there is genuine news coming out of the Sandusky case or the Curley/Schultz case, it’s appropriate to report that B) the guy just died. In our culture, when people die, we focus on their good points. We do this out of respect for the people that loved them and because now that they’re gone, we want to keep with us the parts of them that were good so that they can help make us better people. There’s nothing to be gained by dwelling on the negative. That would be like saving your cat’s shit just because you want to maintain a thorough and honest vision of your cat’s life.
The critics and so forth will have the rest of their lives to dissect the Sandusky case. But right now there are real human beings mourning a real personal loss.
How would you feel if your grandfather died and there were a bunch of articles fixating on his worst qualities? Just think about that.
Shakespeare nailed it.
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar.
. . . . You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.
Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene II
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Jan 29, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Thought about this
Soliloguy the other day, and how it can be applied to the memorial, to a degree.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin

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