Michael Novak's Rebuttal to his critics - and something about some guy named Rambler
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 10:34 AM EST
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PrintA few of us likely remember Michael Novak's eulogy to Joe Paterno that was published on National Review (and originally linked by JBreezy in this FanPost). Well, as some people like to remind those of us inside the wagon circle, a substantial portion of the outside world was content to take the position that Paterno's morals couldn't possibly have been any higher than those of, say, Lane Kiffin or Steve Spurrier.
Michael Novak has some words for those people.
Pickett was a genius. (see comment regarding dangling raw steak in front of a bear)
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I predict that the comments to this FanPost will be shut down by the end of the day
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 13, 2012 11:34 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Is there anything The Simpson's can't teach us?
Paul Anka: To stop those monsters 1-2-3,
Here’s a fresh new way that’s trouble-free,
It’s got Paul Anka’s guarantee…
Lisa: Guarantee void in Tennessee.
Both: Just don’t look! Just don’t look!
Just don’t look! Just don’t look!
Just don’t look! Just don’t look!
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
let us not loose our heads
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 18, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Bunnies people. Bunnies.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
On it
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 13, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I will rec a preemptive bunny.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 13, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
How can anyone look at that picture
And not get all warm and fuzzy, it is just so damn cute, and little.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I'm hungry.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6
by LB31Monster on Feb 13, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Interesting fact -
Welsh rarebit does not, in fact, contain rabbit.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
But rabbit stew does!
Anybody got any carrots?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 13, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
Cook! Cook!
Where’s my Hasenpfeffer?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I thought this site didn't have moderators!
by Chris Grovich on Feb 13, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Somebody's shutting these things down, so moderators must exist
The issue is a steadfast refusal to address the real problem; unless, of course, someone calls a moderator an asshole.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 13, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Man, this place really goes to hell when I leave.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - Robert E. Lee
by ReadingRambler on Feb 13, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
WELCOME BACK!!!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Of course I'm not ok.
Joe Paterno died and the only sport I even marginally care about now is wrestling.
But I’m still not an obnoxious person like, well, let’s not names, so whatever. Also, my copy of Merle’s Working in Tennessee (Copyright, Hag Records, 2011) came today.
And, yes, I know I have been missed – jtot’s been ranting about that in emails for weeks. Thanks. That is appreciated. I will use it to make myself better.
I do not anticipate posting much here anymore, but when I came back and saw what that little creature was doing in another thread, I had to stop by and say how much I respect you all for maintaining your good sense.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - Robert E. Lee
by ReadingRambler on Feb 13, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
RR
A hearty welcome back, mon ami! We haven’t heard a word about the Civil War or good music since your sabbatical began. You may want to give your fingers a break and pace yourself, though. I happened to do the math for your comments/time of membership and …..WOW.
Alea iacta est...
Hey, RR, good to hear from you!
You were one of the first folks here to welcome me — after you vetted me about the 717, of course.
Jump on Galen’s wrestling thread on Friday/Sunday — look forward to “hearing” from you there.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 13, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely been missed my good man
I’ve tried to have Civil War General discussions with myself but that just isn’t the same. Makes everybody think I’m schizophrenic.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Wait...
you mean you’re not actually schizophrenic?
What about you, then?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 6:51 AM EST up reply actions
Nah
I mean, I hear the voices, I just ignore them for the most part. Occasionally they’ll say something really crazy and I have to argue with them.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
When I was in college...
I worked in housekeeping for the camps in East Halls one summer. There were maybe 15 students and 20 regular Tech Service (housekeeping, dining hall, etc.) people who had volunteered to work for the summer. One of the Tech Service guys kind of aspired to be the next Axl Rose. One day he was going off on some rant and mentioned that the voices in his head had stopped telling him to kill his mother and started telling him to kill one of our supervisors. Man I still hope he was actually kidding…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
Did you report this to your surpervisors?
Or go to the police?
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 14, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
With the benefit of hindsight, what I did was enough.
This actually raises a very good point about the concept of moral luck. I’d wager that 90+% of the time, people do what could ultimately be considered the wrong thing, yet the world doesn’t immediately descend into chaos. Then there are people who do the right thing just to be safe, but eventually find out that they didn’t need to go as far as they did – bully for them anyway. Most people could probably count on one hand the times in their life when they made a difference for good – not because people are fundamentally lacking, but because the opportunities to be a hero are few and far between. It’s incredibly rare that a person can do what was supposed to be the right thing, yet still end up suffering for it.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
See, there's your problem
You don’t argue when they say something really crazy. You agree and go along with their plans. Think of all the fun things you’ll get to do: kill 5 hookers, be an “analyst” for ESPN, run for government.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
#OccupyESPN
by IcersGuy on Feb 14, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
FTFY
run for government Penn State BoT
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good to have you back.
Don’t worry about the corn, it will grow itself.
If they ever tell my story let them say that I walked with giants. Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die. Let them say I lived in the time of Bradley, tamer of offenses. Let them say I lived in the time of Paterno.
hey, do you want to go see Merle at the Luhr's Center in April?
and yeah, it did
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
Schedule doesn't work.
I’m gonna try for the one in Williamsport.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - Robert E. Lee
by ReadingRambler on Feb 13, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
Ulysses, you have found your way home.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
I want to point out one comment on the article:
Note to Mr. Novack: please give it up. Paterno failed miserably with respect to young boys who were being molested. Note that I do not use the word “allegedly”.
Since when was staunch ignorance a means to support the value of your opinion? These are the opinions I take issue with, not because of the opinion, but because of the absoluteness. I think it is very possible that Sandusky will be found guilty of these crimes, however that has not happened yet. Further, we do not currently have access to a majority of the information that will be used to support and defend the accusations. To this point, there has been very little in terms of defense as it serves no purpose to present that information. It will only give the prosecution more time to formulate a plan of negating it.
This is my problem with most people’s opinions in general and especially on this issue. People typically presume to know everything, and as a result, make judgments and decisions based on their presumed knowledge. In light of not actually taking the time to determine their capacity of knowledge on the topic, it generally results in an inferior decision than people that are actually aware of the topic. Further, as long as nothing goes wrong, the outcome validates their presumed knowledge and strengthens their beliefs. It’s a very dangerous situation when people stop acknowledging their lack of knowledge and presume to know everything. Before anyone thinks this is my assertion at calling everyone else ignorant, I will be the first to admit there is much that I do not know, such as the evidence I mentioned earlier in this trial. The one thing I will claim I have done superior to a majority of other people is to have not reached an absolute conclusion in judgment. Once all the information is made available is when I will reach my final conclusion, and until then I will continue to simply rationalize the information I have available as best as I can.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 13, 2012 12:12 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Amen
Too many folks in this whole mess — the media, the public, JoePa supporters, JoePa detractors, etc. — and folks on both sides of the spectrum are drawing conclusions based on the available facts and opinions out there as if the currently available information is all there is to the story. We all pay cite the facts and opinions that support our case while downplaying the other, when the reality is that none of really know what happened. We only know what we believe — some believe Joe was too good of a person to maliciously turn the other cheek; others believe he chose to hide rather than face up to what was happening.
Regardless of what we each believe, it is important to remember that we are not all-knowing, we do not possess all the facts, and as much as we may think we know enough that our opinion is the right one, there is likely information still to come out (or never to come out) that would support the other side.
The absolutist nature of the comment SWHA mentions above and that I have read in far too many other places is frightening. Everyone claims to know what others were thinking, as if we have become a world of mind-readers. I’ve stated my opinion before — I believe Joe reported what he heard to the people he trusted to handle it best, and then walked away trusting that they would handle it best. They did not, and here we are.
However, I am not so naive as to think Joe handled it perfectly, and I hope others recognize that his handling was not an abject failure, but rather falls somewhere in the middle as all things in life do. The Joe Supporters look at the good; the Joe Detractors look at the bad; but as I said, the absolutist views on both sides of the coin are downright scary when you think about their application to the world on larger scales.
Every man has a right to his own opinion, but not his own facts (paraphrased)
variously attributed to Bernard Baruch, James R. Schlesinger, and Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
Similarly, I just get super frustrated with people who deal in absolutes, especially in a situation where either all the facts are not known, or certain facts are being ignored in order to reach the conclusion. And no, I don’t mind if someone suggests a possibility that exists contrary to what I believe, so long as they also admit that it is just one possible explanation and also recognize my alternate explanation (and everyone else’s)
It reminds me of the 6 blind men and the elephant:
The Story of the Six Blind Men and the Elephant
Once upon a time there were six blind men. They lived in a town in India. They thought they were very clever. One day an elephant came into the town. The blind men did not know what an elephant looked like but they could smell it and they could hear it. ‘What is this animal like?’ they said. Each man touched a different part of the elephant.
The first man touched the elephant’s body. It felt hard, big and wide. ‘An elephant is like a wall’ he said.
The second man touched one of the elephant’s tusks. It felt smooth and hard and sharp. ‘An elephant is like a spear’ he said.
The third man touched the elephant’s trunk. It felt long and thin and wiggly. ‘An elephant is like a snake’ he said.
The fourth man touched on of the legs. It felt thick and rough and hard and round. ‘An elephant is like a tree’ he said.
The fifth man touched one of the elephant’s ears. It felt thin and it moved. ‘An elephant is like a fan’ he said.
The sixth man touched the elephant’s tail. It felt long and thin and strong. ‘An elephant is like a rope’ he said.
The men argued. It’s like a wall! No, it isn’t! It’s like a spear! No it isn’t! It’s like a snake! They did not agree. The king had been watching and listening to the men. ‘You are not very clever. You only touched part of the elephant. You did not feel the whole animal. An elephant is not like a wall or a spear or a snake, or a tree or a fan or a rope’.
The men left the town still arguing. A little girl heard them and said ‘Each of you is right but you are all wrong … but I know what you are talking about’
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 13, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
of course a woman knows what they are talking about
because only women can be wrong and yet somehow still be right.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
I am not trying to start a religious debate in saying this...
but this is somewhat similar to agnostics or atheists who are more aware of what the bible says than many followers of a faith they claim to believe in.
I think it is safe to say that 99% of non-PSU people have spent about 1% of the time thinking and reading about this that I have. That doesn’t make me right… but it’s impossible to ignore the nuances and inconsistencies when you’ve actually been consumed by something. When you haven’t, you grad the headline, believe it as the truth, and go on believing it until something happens that you can’t (which usually doesn’t happen).
If there’s one thing I’ve learned in all of this, I’ll never trust mainstream media again. I never was much of a news guy, but I’ve seen WAY too many bits of misinformation. I’ve seen quotes and selective reporting edited to purposely color the story. I’ve seen MSM announce things that are demonstrably NOT true as of the time it was reported (e.g., Joe’s death… which is a pretty cut and dry thing… unlike what MM might have said to Curley/Schultz 10 years ago with no other witnesses). In short, in the past 3-4 months I’ve seen everything I was ever taught journalism was not supposed to be.
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 13, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I would be VERY surprised if 99% of the people out there have even spent 1% of the time I have thinking about this subject
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 13, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Of course not . . .
They are camping in Zuccotti Park.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
by SubLime on Feb 13, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
There is no doubt a lot of people out there are less informed.
I would safely guess that most people that heard about this incident failed to even read the grand jury presentment. Further, the ones that did most likely stopped there without even understanding what a grand jury presentment is.
I think only a very small portion of the overall population have taken the time to actually look at all the facts and rationalize the reality of the situation. Regardless of whether or not you’ve taken that time, having a definitive opinion, on either side, is where you start becoming dogmatic and willfully ignorant. It is possible that my current opinion will ultimately be my final opinion, however I acknowledge the pieces of the puzzle that I am lacking, as do many people on this site. We are aware of what is unknown, what is likely to never be known and what is likely to eventually come out. The pieces that we will never know are rationalized to the best of our abilities based on all the information we have. The rest, we tentatively speculate until further information emerges. It’s the people that refuse new information and staunchly uphold their current opinions whose beliefs I do not respect. The moment you declare yourself the expert is the moment you allow the opportunity to be exposed as the fool.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What are the odds...
that the comment attributed to William Peter Blatty actually came from him?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
You made a valid attempt in the comments.
You deserve a pat on the back for it.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 13, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Those windmills aren't going to tilt at themselves, folks.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
leeharvey418, the Don Quixote of BSD?
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter. If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 13, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
And a warm welcome back to OBSimH...
Now – will you be my Sancho Panza?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, what happened to open auditions?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, you can be Sancho Panza.
OPB can be my horse.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Very cool!
“Windmill off the port bow, sir!”
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Rocinante was the horse's name.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Thank you.
Our Pet Badger Rocinante.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Rocinante threw a shoe...
Or I’d be right there with you!
However, I find those comments to be so ignorant that I lose my ability to remain calm and rational. I know I’m in trouble when the dog sneaks out of the room, tail betwixt her legs.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
Oops didn't read far enough!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Hey, Paige, thanks for
the deposit in my emotional bank account yesterday.
Sheesh.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
You're welcome!
LOL!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
You REALLY don't want to get an answer to that question, do you?
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter. If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 13, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
I was actually surprised at the comments
only about half were blatantly vitriolic! And there seemed to be third party commenters who completely agreed with Novak’s points.
A well written article. And I, for one, take offense to the notion that one must either be “liberal” or “conservative” to hold differing viewpoints on IT and how it pertains to Paterno’s legacy. I’ve seen that spewed a few times (not on here) and it’s ludicrous to me—there are many different conservatives and liberals who are on both sides, and I know many of us throughout the political spectrum on this site agree on this issue.
Fire Dan Snyder
I think liberals and conservatives should realize...
that most of us actually agree, in principle, on most things…including hating child abuse.
And that maybe we should all meet in the middle a little more rather than try to smash each other over the head with hammers every 4 years.
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 13, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Opinions of our recent misfortune are animated more along a absolutist/essentialist vs. pluralist/relativist worldview clash.
So I agree with your point completely. Political ideology does not necessarily correlate with an individual’s ontology despite the prevalence of simplistic media analysis which tries to shoehorn party affiliation and the such into tidy, one-size-fits-all worldviews.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
Really?
…because I feel like I started out as a relativist back in November, but I’ve been pulled toward an absolutist (though on the opposite side from most of the absolutists) by the vacuum that existed there.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
I'm thinking overall worldview -- something deeply internalized -- as opposed to a position on any single issue.
The objectivist and relativist alike can find a firm and unyielding place with regard to a particular problem — they just start from different places and take different routes to get there. Nonetheless, even if we confine the analysis to a single issue, I would be surprised if you have altered your political allegiance in this process.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
Your responses to commenters were at least on point.
That’s more than can be said for some commenters with the “everybody knows/knew (fill in the blank)” type statements. If anyone goes back and look, please take note of the remarks by Augie the Prospector.
I’ve been in a position to report a potential problem. Fortunately not involving children and not as clear cut as a shower scene, but nonetheless disturbing. I surely didn’t know what to do, but did what I thought best. To this day do not know the results as it happened while I was traveling and left town the next day. It isn’t something I think about often, but this controversy surely brought it back with a vengeance. Very murky shades of gray.
"Gray" is true for so many situations.
Those who can see only black-and-white are either very blessed or very cursed, or both.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
If you can cut through the prose...
Augie actually makes some very valid points. His diatribe in the comments on the first article by Michael Novak was even better than the one in the second.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it seems to me
That the divide is more along the lines of those who have taken a half-hour to learn the facts, testimony and relevant background information, and those who have lapped up the media narratives because they pretty much match what they want to think about this in the first place.
Or maybe that’s too simplistic.
I’m holding out tenuous hope that those who bother to research and think their way through this whole thing would then be likely to give Joe (in particular) the benefit of the doubt. The NRO comments seem to display that in spades. But that’ll probably happen right after the unicorns are delivered and start crapping golden Skittles.
by Jitterbug on Feb 13, 2012 10:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Not true.
The claim made here by many that the critics of Joe Paterno’s canonization are ignorant or misinformed is not true – they are as or more informed than the median commenter here, who continues to maintain obviously false narratives in the service of said canonization.
It IS true that most of those who believe Paterno did wrong have stopped talking about it in forums like this one, because the mob is so vicious to those who still do.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 14, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 9 recs
It is true
in fact, it was a little bit frightning
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
with expert timing, as well
If only we had a 40 foot ocean shipping container full of them to let loose in a certain someones Lair of Righteousness and Enlightenment (cough…mothers basement…. cough), that would be quite pleasing.
A plague of rabbits...
That sounds almost biblical. I like it.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
We will need the holy hand grenade of Antioch
if we are going to survive.
by FB6244 on Feb 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
We just have to make sure we get the operation sequence down.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
…And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O LORD, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy.” And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu… [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to “skip a bit, brother”]… And the LORD spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.”[1
by FB6244 on Feb 14, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just remember, there are three kinds of
people in this world: Those who can count, and those who can’t.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It be even better if before being placed in said container
to attach video cameras to the kung fu fighting, fast as lightning, little bit frightening, but with expert timing bunnies. And then let them loose, and have a live stream set up so we could watch the results here.
The people
commenting in that article were grossly ignorant of the facts. My experience is that most of the people who think Paterno was horrible human being for how he handled the 2002 incident are grossly misinformed about the nuances of the matter.
I have no problem making Paterno a “Saint”. He was not perfect, nor did he need to be.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I have a problem with making Paterno a saint.
I don’t have a problem defending him against accusations based on nothing more than some peoples’ ideas about what big-time college football must be like. So what if some people might turn a blind eye to child abuse for the sake of protecting their job – that doesn’t mean that everyone would. Like I said in the FanPost that got shut down – my biggest issue is with the morons who can’t comprehend that you can work with someone for years and not be close friends. Okay, them and the people who think all campus police are glorified mall cops…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Or the ones who claim that Joe was the actual abuser
or that Joe was in the closet cheering Jerry on. I wonder if those are the people M1EK is claiming that “are as or more informed than the median commenter here.”
by BRJ75 on Feb 14, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Go easy now.
There’s a difference between poking the bear and dangling a raw steak in front of its face.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Eh, now that I think about it...
a more apt comparison might be to the pile left in the woods.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
With the benefit of hindsight...
I should have written my last two sentences better. By “Saint” I meant I have no problem saying that I think Joe Paterno was good man.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
No.
For instance, deadspin is nearly universally reviled here – yet their understanding of how we got where we are is nearly 100% accurate.
You do need to be perfect to be a “saint”. Or damn close. Paterno was just a good man.
And the position I’ve held here is, really, a middle ground – Paterno did a lot of good, but those who insist he did nothing wrong here are just as ignorant as those who insist he was primarily responsible for Sandusky not being caught after 2002.
Holding that position here is anathema to the pro-canonization people. They cannot tolerate any deviation from the narrative that Paterno did everything he should have done.
Who are the "pro-canonization" people?
I feel that they individually have a right to defend whether or not they are actually “pro-canonization”. I ask that you identify them, and give them an opportunity to defend themselves against this attack.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Paterno wasn't a "saint"
Hell, he would have been the first to tell you that.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 14, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Let him answer.
If this board is as dominated by “pro-canonization” advocates as he claims, he should easily be able to identify a few. If he picks you, than you are free to respond with what I hope will be an civil recitation of your opinion, whether it be for, or against, canonization the canonization of Joe Paterno.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Is there a distinction between "pro-canonization" and "apologist"?
Or is one just a more refined gross generalization than the other?
Only M1EK could answer that one
Like jesse. said, I am interested to see if he actually responds to his question.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
I think there is a difference.
I think that “pro-canonization party” believes that Joe Paterno did nothing wrong, and that all of his actions should be glorified with out any reference to the scandal of which he had not part.
“Apologist” would be people who believe that Joe Paterno’s actions were appropriate under the circumstances and that it is unfair to judge him in the benefit of hindsight.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 14, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well explained distinction.
I wonder if the original poster held the same nuanced view, or if “pro-canonization” was simply another way to express disdain for opposing points of view.
I already said above that I'm very much anti-canonization.
I will, however, continue to offer every rational explanation for Joe’s actions to anyone who will listen. …and likely more than a couple of people who won’t listen.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Well, you've been nominated.
So if you’ll take a few minutes to clarify your opinion as it relates to the canonization of Joe Paterno below, I’d appreciate it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Darn it, Jesse.
Misunderstood the assignment, as usual.
Re the canonization of Joe, I offer the following quotation:
The speaker is MARK ANTONY:
O mighty Caesar! dost thou lie so low?
Are all thy conquests, glories, triumphs, spoils,
Shrunk to this little measure? Fare thee well.
I know not, gentlemen, what you intend,
Who else must be let blood, who else is rank:
If I myself, there is no hour so fit
As Caesar’s death hour, nor no instrument
Of half that worth as those your swords, made rich
With the most noble blood of all this world.
I do beseech ye, if you bear me hard,
Now, whilst your purpled hands do reek and smoke,
Fulfil your pleasure. Live a thousand years,
I shall not find myself so apt to die:
No place will please me so, no mean of death,
As here by Caesar, and by you cut off,
The choice and master spirits of this age.
Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene I
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
There aren't any.
Those people are strawmen built up to make us look like cultists, yet none of them exist. I think the fundamental understanding of Joe on this board is that he was an exceptional human being, not an imperfect deity. That’s what makes him so special, because there are very few people who can live up to the standards he set. More importantly, he encouraged other people to try to reach those standards as well and did everything he could to help them achieve that success. Regardless if he himself actually reached them is somewhat irrelevant, as the majority of his success isn’t in his personal accomplishments, but in the accomplishments he helped others to achieve. The people who truly appreciate Joe and are defending his legacy are the people that realize that his legacy is in every Penn Stater. That’s what Joe understood too, and it’s what people thinking we’re trying to deify him don’t understand.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
The problem began when E$PN and Co...
Made Joe the “king” of Penn State. From that point of view, we all look like cultists. Especially if we defend him.
The daily show did an unfortunate piece about Joe that put the Pope’s hat on his head and compared us to catholics defending pedophile priests. They insinuated that the kids were cultists during the “riots” after he was fired.
This is exceptionally well said:
I think the fundamental understanding of Joe on this board is that he was an exceptional human being, not an imperfect deity. That’s what makes him so special, because there are very few people who can live up to the standards he set. More importantly, he encouraged other people to try to reach those standards as well and did everything he could to help them achieve that success. Regardless if he himself actually reached them is somewhat irrelevant, as the majority of his success isn’t in his personal accomplishments, but in the accomplishments he helped others to achieve.
It captures exactly what I wish the world would know about Joe.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
by 87Townie on Feb 14, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Here's a couple off the top of my head
Success With Honor Always
the 84 dude
FB626264 or whatever the hell teh numbers are.
leeharvey418
I just love how you feel it appropriate to hand me a giant bag of homework, after you’ve been such a jerk to me. What on earth makes you think I would then comply, anyways?
I asked you to name some people
Your home work is completed. In reality, I gave the people you named homework.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
No you didn't.
Any effort is futile. I’ve made it a point to understand M1EK’s contention with the situation. It’s because he believes if Paterno would have followed up, Sandusky would have been found guilty and therefore everything after 2002 would never have happened.
He clearly doesn’t understand anything I have to say, such as my post directly above his reply that is in green where I make the point of saying I don’t think Paterno was a deity, and that I respect him more because he was a human than if he were some kind of deity. I make no attempt to canonize him, but merely point out what his true legacy is. That should keep me firmly in the Paterno apologist camp, however I guess we’re all just cultists and the degrees of which are irrelevant to M1EK.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Well you're wrong
again.
Nowhere have I said I wanted him cannonized. He has plenty of faults, but his actions relating to the information he was handed seems rational and only a mistake in hindsight.
Now, go back under your bridge.
I'm in the same boat with you.
I have never once said Paterno didn’t share in some of the responsibility, only that he was the least responsible out of everyone involved and he was the only person outright fired and thrown to the wolves. I also agree that given all the information we know, he acted reasonably. That’s not to say he acted correctly, but there is absolutely no evidence he acted with the malice and ill-intent that has been speculated by so many. There is nothing to support he intentionally abandoned a child in danger for the sake of wins, the university’s reputation or anything else you can claim. There’s nothing to even support he knew there was a child still in danger. All we know are the initial allegations and have had NOTHING to support what his final understanding of the incident was. Yet apparently if you give him the benefit of the doubt, that makes you a cultist.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
there is absolutely no evidence he acted with the malice and ill-intent that has been speculated by so many. There is nothing to support he intentionally abandoned a child in danger for the sake of wins, the university’s reputation or anything else you can claim. There’s nothing to even support he knew there was a child still in danger.
Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Precisely.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Super Squirrel will solve this argument
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 14, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you!!
I am honored to be included in your target set.
Here is a partial response: My opposition to you in particular is less geared towards your points (some of which have merit) than towards your pedantic, egotistical, smarmy atttude towards ANYONE who does not bow down at whatever string of words you care to throw off your keyboard. If your discourse and presentation were remotely rational and objective, I would not be tempted to give you so much grief. As it is, the fact that you are a pompous gasbag just aching for a sharp needle encourages me to challenge both your statements and you personally.
Jesse., feel free to grade my homework response.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As tempting as needling can be, I prefer...
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
mmmm like veal
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
I'm cool with that
as long as that little guy is packing a Gerber Mark II.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Smarmy.
I can’t remember the last time I fit “smarmy” into a conversation. It is such a descriptive word.
It really is an under-utilized word.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
my mother called certain TV evangelists smarmy
and lots of politicians. She still uses the word often
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
You Mom sounds hot!
/obligatoryresponse
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
for someone born the year they opened the Watsontown – White Deer bridge
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
I'm sure there is no causal
relationship there.
(What response do I give you, BMAN?)
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
She is 84 this year
has had breast cancer twice, colon cancer twice, back surgery and still volunteers 3 times a week at the hospital. Amazing woman, so I am not at all offended if someone calls her hot.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
by BMAN13 on Feb 14, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yikes.
She reminds me of the dog that answers to ‘Lucky’.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
For the health problems, not for anything untoward.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
My Mom turned 85 in December.
She is harder than woodpecker’s lips. Something about that generation . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
definitely
her dad lived and ran CCC camp and they raised chickens and grew a huge garden to eat. She is very well off now, but still lives every day like the depression can happen tomorrow.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
I LOVE HER SOOO!
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 14, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
And I find you
just as odious, if not more. The lack of self-awareness is just absolutely stunning among some of you people. Really.
I know how you view me. The amazing thing is none of you realize how the rest of the world is viewing you.
We. don't. care.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
This can't be said enough.
I don’t speak for anyone else on this site, and I don’t think anyone on this site attempts to speak for me. Instead, it is a collection of people thinking for themselves and discussing their own thoughts, understandings and reasonings. There is really no place for popular opinion in these discussions. The effort is to find the truth, not to conform with others. I feel that all my arguments are based on evidence and fact, and are not based in belief. If there are flaws in my arguments, then anyone who reads them will be able to point them out on their own, and that outcome will refute my argument. It is only if you can not find fault in my arguments, and you still disagree with me that you consider my beliefs to be dangerous. If that’s the case, that speaks more to the person enraged by my arguments more than it says about me.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
What do you mean, YOU PEOPLE?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 14, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
The people who lack self awareness, obviously
Only those who have reached a post-enlightened state should deign to comment on the internet.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think the threshold is lack of hindsight necessity.
Since it is M1EK’s contention that Paterno should have seen the mistakes he made in trusting Curley and Schultz to perform their jobs satisfactorily without the benefit of hindsight, anyone who relies on hindsight to judge the overall outcome of their actions is far too mentally stunted to have a valid opinion. Not only are we Paterno cultists, we are also hindsight cultists as well.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
What do you people mean, YOU people?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Or maybe we do understand how people view us...
yet we don’t conform to their wishes because we honestly believe our actions are right.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
That's because we're part of a cult
A Cult of Personality.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
LIke Josef Stalin? Or Gahndi?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
If the rest of the world elected you to represent them...
Well, so be it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Jedi.
So be it. Jedi.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
By the rest of the world
You mean the 4 people on a 41 comment thread on EDSBS?
Yes, the rest of the world indeed.
This is a Penn State blog, I don’t see how you would expect attitudes to be any different than what they are. May I interest you in a nice, Along the Olentangy, or perhaps an MGOBLOG?
Bent But Not Broken
by letsgopsu on Feb 14, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
/insert token response
I’ve gotten many emails congratulating me on my stance. From Penn State fans!
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
A thread on EDSBS with 41 responses
is practically non-existent
Bent But Not Broken
by letsgopsu on Feb 14, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
"If a wife says something to her husband, and he truly
does not hear, is she still right?"
Kinda like that, NC?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As my buddy says
there are two rules to a happy relationship:
1. What’s hers is hers and what’s mine is hers.
2. I can be right or I can be happy.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
This is what I don't understand,
and I don’t read EDSBS so forgive me if I have my facts wrong.
M1EK claims that his insistence comes from a good place, his desire to not see PSU portrayed (by BSD writers, commenters, etc.) as cultists, isolationists, etc. And this may very well be his cause; to help us more positively portray how we are perceived by the outside world. But if that were true, and he was only trying to save us from ourselves, why would he then go on other sites and complain about our inability to see the truth. I mean, if his primary concern is how it looks to outsiders, why would he post neon signs directing outsiders to a site that he believes portrays PSU fans as enablers, cultists, etc.? Just something I think about between reading and commenting on tedious work related documents. Carry on.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
This deserves an immediate rec.
I would love to see an answer.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Do you think my memory this short? Why on earth would I do you the favor of an honest answer, to say 1000x less of kijana’s acl?
by M1EK on Feb 14, 2012 6:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
You're the best
I don’t understand your second sentence, at all, but the passive aggressive tone is just the cherry on the top of a brutal day. Thanks.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the thing
You’re a gigantic jerk all over the place – and then you come with a seemingly sincere effort to get a real response, and then three seconds later you’re back to gigantic jerk.
I’m kind of tired of wasting my time figuring out whether I should take you seriously. Got it?
Wow.
Somewhere there’s a doctoral candidate in a psychology department who really wants to make you the focus of their dissertation.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm always sincere
and I’m usually a jerk. HTH.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
And for a moment I thought BSD lost its resident comedian.
Thank you for keeping the hilarity coming!
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
He does five minutes on airplane travel
with a heavy focus on bag fees and the fact that you no longer get the bag of 8-10 peanuts … absolutely KILLS it.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 8:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is it just me...
or does this sound suspiciously like video game or technical manual language (e.g. – all your base are belong to us)?
I’m going with the theory that M1EK is an intern toiling away in a basement somewhere in Yokohama Prefecture…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
Right.
We wouldn’t want to make any actual progress when we can continue sitting here banging our heads against the wall.
Cue Monty Python monks.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
And if his intentions are to woo us from our ignorance
and fallacious thinking, why does he excoriate us, instead of nurturing? Not a good parenting or management style!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
What is EDSBS?
Can we get a link please?
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
Ed's Bullshit.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Every Day Should Be Saturday
If you don’t live in the South or care to understand the South, don’t bother. It’s mostly just BBQ recipes and tips for picking up your cousin at a tailgate.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Hint: It helps to have a winch on your truck
when picking up that wench.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget truck nuts.
They help prove your masculinity.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, because too many times the real
ones are lacking.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'm geographically southern...
But my accent immediately gives me away as a yankee.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
I live in North Carolina,
and the folks here are the ones with the accent . . . .
Jes’ sayin’ . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
I lived in Durham for a few years
They used to say,
“Y’all aren’t from around here are yuh? Bless your heart…”
It took a while to realize what that last part meant…
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
"That girl is so ugly
they feed her with a slingshot. Bless her heart!"
I work in Durham, of course, 87, but live in one of the rural counties. Great folks, for the most part.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
I like it
EDSBS often has hilarious stuff. LSUFreek’s gifs are classic.
by Nittanian on Feb 14, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't mind it
It just seems too self referential to dive in at this point. Too many inside jokes (and Southern references) for a Yankee noob.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
That's true
I don’t get the “Pawl” stuff at all.
I laughed a few times just looking now...
and found this:
Valentine’s Day. The one day of the year when every half assed, disappointing excuse for a romantic partner can try to dig deep and make their eleventh hour improvisation not look like one of so many Denard Robinson throws on the run.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
they have some hilarious posts
they are also very welcoming in open threads, I have participated in a few. Fun, but insane. It is best to wade in slowly, spend some time at BHGP first and work you way up,
Bent But Not Broken
I live in the middle of Georgia/Florida hell...
I’ll be sure to check it out.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
It is a hell of a forum
of oneupmanship and self backslapping
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
They're not completely an SEC blog anymore.
I’ve met people on there who are Oregon, Oklahoma, East Carolina, Notre Dame, Purdue, Michigan State, and other fans. Our own psuphiman hangs out there now. I really like their open threads because they’re like our gameday open threads on crack. Just absolutely hilarious! Everyone has been really nice to me there.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Apologists!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
No.
The rest of the world. The commenters on every other blog I follow. The people who email / DM me. The people I see in real life. The people in the media (who aren’t, as you people assert, ignorant of the facts).
Not just the 4 people in an EDSBS fanpost (nobody reads them there even more than here).
Have you ever considered
that perhaps you have surrounded yourself with people who are likeminded to your beliefs and ideals, which is why they email/DM you support, much like you claim we do here?
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
by skarocksoi on Feb 15, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
have you ever thought that if these people really were confident in their beliefs and stance that they wouldn't feel the need to only support you in private?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
You mean firm rebuttals to demonstably false tenets?
Yeah, that’s a totally unfair debate tactic.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Isnt it obvious?
Obviously they cant come here and comment because they have no arms, therefore they wouldnt be able to type on their keyboards.
If they had arms, it would be too easy to fight back and escape.
no one that has been respectful in the presentment of their own view has been treated poorly to my recollection
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Your recollection is wrong.
Or, like most, you define “respectful” as “don’t say anything with which I disagree too much”.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 20, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
I only made it through the first three, but it seemed pertinent enough to post:
Be alert to anyone who speaks in absolutes: who uses words such as all, none, no one, never, always, everyone, must, immediately, or who refers to a group of people as if all the members have identical characteristics, beliefs, or attitudes.
Be alert to generalizations, especially to generalizations that are not supported or that are supported from just one or two specific, unusual, or extreme examples.
Be alert to anyone who uses emotional language and evaluative words instead of objective, factual responses.
by CvilleLion on Feb 14, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Number four.
Definitely number four.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
The "rest of the world" can suck a bag of dicks for all I care.
I’m not going to be a drone who believes what I want, if I want to be like the rest of world I might as well just dig a hole in the backyard and drink the dirty water out of that instead, cause that’s what a lot of the world does also.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
Different is good
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
This guy – this is not my kind of guy.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Feb 14, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You make statements
you should be prepared to back them up. That’s not homework, that’s debate.
We Are because You Were
Black Shoe Diaries
by Kyle_Martin on Feb 14, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yay! I made the list!
I do know know what was in Joe’s head and heart when he was thinking of what to do after receiving McQueary’s report. I believe him when he says that he needed some time to think about what he should do, because it’s consistent with my idea of Joe as a rational person who is not prone to rash decisions. I further believe that everything he did should have been right – from passing along the report internally, to waiting for events to play out without further intervention. I have read the testimony from Joe, McQueary, Curley, Schultz, and Tom Harmon – none of it suggests that anyone is telling an outright lie, though some points are open to interpretation.
I know that among Penn State administrators and Second Mile staff, there were many people who had the training to deal with charges of child abuse. None of those people apparently thought that the report from McQueary warranted more action than it received.
I know that being wrongfully charged with child molestation is something I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. I pray that I never find myself in a position where I have to handle a report of events that I didn’t witness, where either the welfare of a child or the reputation of a good person could be riding in the balance.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Crap
I do NOT know what was in Joe’s head and heart.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Nor does anyone else.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter. If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 14, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
If you are thrown into a situation
that you fully 100% know that you are unprepared to handle, what do you do?
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
Um... ask for help?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Run screaming from the room with my hands over my ears
Is that not correct?
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 14, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Find nearest corner
Assume fetal position
Insert thumb into mouth
Wet pants
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bend over;
kiss my ass good-bye.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
BOHICA?
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 14, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
PERFECT!!
With emphasis on the “again”!!!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Would "messing" pants fit as well?
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
It's an optional extra step.
It’s only required if you’re truly freaked the hell out and not just confused.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
If the PR firm is really that good...
wouldn’t you have already hired them because of how good their reputation was?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
With the benefit of hindsight,
I would have hired them BEFORE I got into the situation.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
What does orthodontia have
to do with this?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Could just go the Craig James route
Over you are done killing the 5 Hookers, then hire a PR firm to bash the coach of your spoiled brat of a son
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
ALLEGEDLY done killing the 5 hookers.
Remember, the accusations have never been proven. Nor have they been denied.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter. If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 14, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
So long as you say allegedly
it’s true. It is an absolute fact that Craig James allegedly killed five hookers while at SMU. It’s not even debatable. It’s as true as the tides and a sunrise.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I'm going to stop Rec-ing
leeharvey’s posts, but just assume that from now on they all have at least one, from me. I agree wholeheartedly.
Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
by NewJackCity on Feb 14, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Awww...
Thanks man.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
you’ve been such a jerk to me
You give as good as you get. I think your quote was “grow a set”.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Grow some.
I remember because I thought a pair of rosemary sprigs wasn’t enough.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
And I wondered
what he was supposed to grow because it is quite cold right now.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
You are correct.
It was “grow some”. I misquoted him.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I don't know about that.
There were some comments made at me that I haven’t even come close in terms of reciprocation and have no intent of doing so. I would like to them however they have been deleted and I have no desire to go down that path.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
UNCIVIL!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
It's like a swarm of cicadas inside your brain...
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I knew it was my fault.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Sorry, jesse.,
but this thread only has room enough for one martyr. You’ll have to self-flagellate on another thread.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
He does have you there...
Lawyers are real jerks.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
I knew it was your fault too!
I knew you were trouble as soon as I heard your opinions on breakfast meats.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
I would never weigh in on breakfast meats on this blog.
Those discussions get serious.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
For damn good reason
Breakfast meats are a cornerstone of American culture. Some things deserve to be taken seriously. So far my list:
Breakfast meats
Beer
Whiskey
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 14, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
On a side note,
I made bacon-wrapped scrapple deep fried in pancake batter this weekend. I tried making it 2 ways: by frying the scrapple and bacon first prior to assembly and by assembling the ingredients raw. There wasn’t a noticeable difference in the final outcome, however it was pretty delicious. My only complaint is that I like my scrapple fried hard on the outsides and soft in the middle, and the process of wrapping it in bacon and then dredging it in pancake batter makes it pretty difficult to do.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is amazing
I’m impressed
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 14, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
What? You pooped in the refrigerator?
And you ate the whole… wheel of cheese? How’d you do that? Heck, I’m not even mad; that’s amazing.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
And there is always a workable Anchorman quote for every situation
Always.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Trust me
I can shoehorn a movie quote into any online conversation.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
I have lived in both the US and Italy
and there is very much that I like, and even favor, re: Italy and it’s general lifestyle, worldview, communities, relationships, etc. I’ve never really measured or compared the two places, instead more trying to appreciate the things I like about both and incorporate them into my life wherever I live.
However, if I were ever to have to choose all of one (with the good and the warts) or all of the other, there is little doubt that the decision would be made entirely based on America’s elevation of delicious breakfast meats.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
I don't know...
There’s a lot to be said for Italian cured meats. I can’t think of much that’s better than a really good sopressata.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
The Italians might not have yet
Elevated the Breakfast meat to the point that Americans have, but they do have some real tasty options for breakfast. A good fritata, and salumi, can’t go wrong there
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I ate Nutella every morning
and it was great. Problem is, I still eat it a few times a week. In America. No advantage given unless they stop exporting.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
I play the game
If you were forced to eat only 1 cuisine for the rest of your life, what would it be. I always pick Italian, since there are so many different things you can eat and never be bored.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Yeah
Don’t get me wrong, Italian cuisine is had and shoulders above anything else. But American cuisine has incorporated so much of Italian influence, that it lessens the real advantage. Now it’s not even close to as good, except in some very expensive restaurants. We use a softer grain over here, so the pasta (if not imported) is generally less delicious and al dente. But it’s still available and still delicious.
The ingredients are also generally not as high quality, at least for their purposes in Italian cuisine. Even something simple like caprese salad can just knock your face off in Italy – fresh tomato, fresh basil and juicy buffalo mozzarella with fresh and fragrant EVOO…I mean I go to my grocery store here and buy the same basic ingredients, but they’re either not quite as good or they cost about 3 times as much at specialty import stores. But the lower quality stuff is still pretty good. If I get a craving for almost any delicious italian meal, I can make reservations somewhere and never go more than a month or two without getting a taste.
But in Italy, you really can’t get good breakfast meats. I mean I guess you could bastardize a sort of sausage or something and use pancetta for bacon. But it’s not the same. And it’s not even an option outside your own home. I mean, there’s nowhere to go eat a serious sit-down breakfast other than like hotels. The culture focuses breakfast on coffee and pastries, and most places are standing up at a bar or sitting at a small table for like 5 minutes. While still enjoyable, after like 2 months, you just want some fucking bacon and sausage.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
There is a restaurant near me
Where the owner is originally from Turin, and everything he makes by hand. It is ridiculously good, never had better Italian than that. Have been to little Italy in NYC many times, and he beats them, or atleast is just as good. Have not made it to Italy yet, really want to, but in the states the restaurant near me and Little Italy, are the closest to heaven in a plate Italian.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Interesting you mentioned Little Italy
I worked there for a few months back in the day as a host.
What a lot of people who aren’t foodies don’t really know is that there are two types of what is called “Italian cuisine”. There is the prevailing cuisine that is made in Italy, which obviously makes sense. Then there is the cuisine that was made by Italian immigrants who came to America in the early 20th century. They have many things in common, but are actually quite different.
Without getting too in-depth historically, suffice it to say that a large portion of the immigrants who came to large US urban areas were from “Il Mezzogiorno” aka southern Italy, dominated mostly by people from Sicily and the Naples region. They types of food they made included a lot of variations (like the dialects they spoke), but the main staples that we see now are your basic spaghetti and meatballs, with red sauce (or gravy) type dishes. Your chicken parms, pizzas, fettuccine alfredo, lasagna, etc. and a pretty liberal use of garlic.
In more modern Italian cuisine, these dishes aren’t always as popular. Red sauce is not as dominant. There’s a lot more light and cream sauces, and a lot more use of olive oil. There are a LOT more variations of pasta – you still have the spaghetti, but they use a lot more short pastas, and slight variations are actually seen as quite important. The first couple times I went over there I was amazed at how everyone seems to know the difference between one type of pasta and another, and what you should generally get with what type of sauce, or what’s better in the summer, etc. The meats are also different – modern Italian cuisine still uses a lot of chicken, but also a lot of veal, beef and mind-bendingly awesome seafood.
You could go to something called an “Italian restaurant” that specializes in Italian-American cuisine and another Italian restaurant similar to how I’d assume the Turin-based chef runs his, and you might not see more than 1 or 2 items that overlap. In my experience, most of the restaurants in Little Italy are Italian-American.
Personally, I love both. It depends what mood I’m in. But there’s something very special about a great chicken parm or spaghetti and meatballs that warms the soul…that’s the “Italian food” passed down from generations, that evokes thoughts of grandma’s house, childhood, etc.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
NOW I'm hungry.
That salad I had for lunch isn’t getting it done . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I should also add
That you could go to an Italian restaurant in Turin (near the Alps) and one in Catania (in Sicily), and you might not see more than 1 or 2 overlapping items there, either. Very, very much variation.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Octa, are you going to the
B/W game this year? I will be your new best friend if you cook some of the food you mentioned!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
I am thinking about it
But I’m a terrible cook myself. In fact, my mom is only just OK (thank goodness for my anonymous screen name…she knows this to be true, though). My relatives in Italy used to run a restaurant and are truly superlative, and my grandma in the US kills the old-school style.
So I’m afraid all that I can really bring to the table are descriptions of delicious stuff I’ve been lucky enough to have eaten. That generally doesn’t make for a great tailgate.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Is there a BSD tailgate
at the B/W game this year? Mrs. 84 and I are seriously considering making the drive this year. Would love to meet the BSD gang.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I am definetly going to the B/W game
And am a good cook, can whip up some good Italian, atleast good for me with no training. Was going to ask around before the gmae who is all going, maybe we can set up an area for a big BSD tailgate and pass recipies and talk football and chat. Would need jessedotsmom to help with the cooking.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I should be there!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
I will be there!
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
There's a book about this
which I’ve been meaning to read . . . How Italian Food Conquered the World by Esquire food critic John Mariani. Haven’t read it yet, but heard the author talking about it.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
I've never read it
I was honestly just noodling from personal experience. It’s awesome that someone else smarter and/or more experienced has said the same type thing, which might mean that I’m not a complete idiot.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
I know what you mean about Northern and Southern Italian cooking
They almost don’t resemble each other. But the basic items are there. Simple, respect the ingredients and lots of garlic and love. And make sure that pasta is al dente.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Pasta has to have TEETH?!?!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
overcooked pasta makes me sad
Have you ever cooked pasta in red wine, I made this with bucatini (thick, hollow spaghetti)
http://giorgio-thatsitalian.blogspot.com/2012/02/spaghetti-allubriaco-drunken-red.html
Have you ever been to Babbo in NYC?
Bent But Not Broken
Bucatini all'amatriciana
is my favorite pasta dish. It’s really pretty unassailable.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Have to go to Ferraro's
For dessert
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I used to work at Vincent's
a block off Mulberry on Mott. It was an interesting time.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Interesting thing from this weekend
My local grocery store has had rice balls in their deli case. I tried one this weekend. They were awesome, dense, chewy rice with a little cheese, meat and peas filling.
NEPA has some great, authentic Italian food
Bent But Not Broken
Ooh rice balls
aka arancini…that’s a very Sicilian thing, and it was one of my favorite quick lunch items for when I was studying in English. Also – not really healthy.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
studying in English
was supposed to be studying in Rome. Not sure why I typed that.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
I don't care if my heart explodes and my liver spontaneously combusts.
I’m eating and drinking what I want until then, dammit.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Have you ever tried fiori di zucca?
Similar idea to the rice balls. They’re zucchini or squash blossoms filled with creamy mozzarella and a small anchovie and deep fried. I understand they can be filled with ricotta or something and/or not include anchovies. But they are ridiculously delicious. When in Rome (literally)…
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Peace through breakfast meats superiority.
Sounds like a perfect strategy to me.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
There are no...
bad breakfast meats.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
you did post a very scary breakfast meat comment once
I remember because it made me LOL
You said you kid announced he did not like bacon. We were all very worried.
Bent But Not Broken
You are way too sensitive M1EK...
If you want a discussion, where I might disagree with you, let’s roll up our sleeves and get to it.
If not, if you are simply going to spout anger and vitriol…then you are a troll.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
He's not a troll.
He said so. Repeatedly.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
How odd.
Read definition number two and tell me it doesn’t sound familiar.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
I think #1 is just as accurate
but, really, they all fit.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
What struck me about two...
was the ad hominem attacks and this:
without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
The best way not to be
swayed by another’s point of view is to not bother listening.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
Also,
It’s an effective way to piss off certain people.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Good rule of thumb
If you have to constantly state that you are not a troll, then you are probably in denial.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but he is from Bellefonte...
so he starts out with an inferiority complex.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
Deadspin...
only Magary has written anything on this matter that is worth reading.
Are we asking that Paterno should have done more, because anyone in his position (hearing a 2nd hand account) should do more or are we asking that Paterno should have done more because he’s Paterno?
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
and lets see what else went on with Paterno's life for a few months around that time
February 2002 George Paterno moves in with Joe and Sue and is dieing from cancer. He had no one in New York to take care of him so he moved in with Joe and Sue.
April Spring practice, 16-18 hour days coming off of 2 straight losing seasons and Joe feeling he hasn’t put in enough time the last two years.
June 3 2002 Fran Ganter, who Joe IS close to (unlike Sandusky) Fran’s wife collapses and dies, suddenly
June 23 2002 George passes away
So, Joe should still be worrying about something told to him that he thought he elevated to the proper level. I guess, but I am not near as judgemental as M1EK because I have had a year similar to that and I know I would not be on top of everything that didn’t involve me or my family.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
by BMAN13 on Feb 14, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
^ This,
all this.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think..
he simply thought the matter, as far as he was invloved/concerned, was over.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
FTFY
he simply thought the matter, as far as he was invloved/concerned, was over after being told that University administration had addressed the issue and McQueary was okay with the outcome.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
thank you.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
You mean reasonable indicators that people performed their duties competently?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Novel concept, I know.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
No need to bring books into this.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
We'll leave it to the bunny, this time
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I was always curious about why JoePa didn't follow up more
But when everyone, including McQuery, apparently told him it was all ahndled and they were ok with it, well then that made sense.
Nothing but apologist nonsense
All many people, including me, were expecting of Joe Paterno is that he ask a couple of questions.
And, no, following up with a grad assistant who is scared to death of what he might have unleashed is not “following up”.
Following up with Curley and/or Schultz would have been “Whatever happened with Sandusky? I see he’s still on campus and I hear he’s still working with kids”. Paterno admitted he never did this.
Following up with McQueary would be “what exactly happened – I need you to tell me in excruciating and embarassing detail”. Not “are you OK with what has happened since then”. This is not relevant follow-up. The fact that you guys keep bringing up McQueary as “follow-up” shows you are only interested in being apologists, and not addressing the tougher side of the issue.
What's nonsense
is using the alleged molestation of children and the death of Paterno to troll this site. That is seriously one of the scummiest things I have ever seen. Congrats on being that guy, I am sure your friends and parents are proud.
FTFY.
your inflatable friends and cardboard cutout parents are proud
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, we know atleast one "person"
who thinks this guy is a friend.
I just hope that you follow these standards.
I’m sure every time someone tells you they’re “fine” or “ok”, you force them to give you every detail, regardless of if they’re willing to divulge that information or not. Since in the present, you don’t have the benefit of hindsight to determine the seriousness of the situation, it warrants that you would do this every time.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Wouldn't that get a person a reputation as an asshole pretty quickly?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
doesn't he already have that reputation?
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
To whom are you referring dear?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
ME1K
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
by amandakt on Feb 15, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Really? I hadn't noticed...
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry - that should have been
Really? I hadn't noticed...
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
When I have somebody who's
in a position of absolutely zero power who just made a strong accusation against somebody with a lot more power than them that didn’t appear to be taken seriously by the people in that power structure who worked with that guy for decades…
I’m not going to trust them when they meekly declare they’re OK with it, no.
Fact check on
the “meekly” or is that jsut more made up bullshit?
Thought so troll.
In fact, you also assume that McQueary
was “scared to death”. When did he ever testify to that? Again, why are your assumptions valid and others’ are not?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Because mine
meets the basic test of common sense, and yours don’t.
A grad assistant who reported that the dude most responsible for Linebacker U molested a kid and then saw nothing apparently happen as a result is asked by the demigod coach of Linebacker U if he’s satisfied what happened.
A fourth grader could understand why said grad assistant might be reticent to say anything but “sure” there.
Wait, the same 28-year old kid who didn't have any compunction about calling the Demi-god at 7:30 on a Saturday morning?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
This is ridiculous.
You can’t actually be serious. “My assumption is valid and yours isn’t because mine makes sense to me and yours doesn’t”.
by dbl5030 on Feb 15, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
You have perfectly encapsulated the essence of his arguments.
Everything else is just window dressing.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No.
Not just to me, to everybody who’s ever worked in a real job.
The mail-room clerk is not the same as the CEO.
Your job, as you've described it, is barely a job
It’s Office Space satire. Sorry.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently not.
There are a heck of a lot of people here who work in very real jobs and don’t agree with your assumption.
All you’re doing here is claiming to speak for people in order to add ethos to your argument. But at the end of the day, all you’re doing is claiming your assumptions are valid and those who disagree with you aren’t. And you don’t have any reason to do so other than that those opinions aren’t in line with yours.
Yeah, not true.
What you’re trying to defend here is logic that a fourth-grader can see through.
McQueary was just starting out in his career. Paterno was 75 years old and was 2 years away from being able to tell the Board of Trustees to get off his lawn.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I'm not trying to defend anything.
All I’m trying to do is point out that you’re dismissing others’ assumptions while pushing your own under the guise of common sense.
Again, not true.
My assumptions are based on actual reality – where it would be unrealistic to assume a grad assistant just starting out in his career is going to be completely honest with his boss if it looked like an investigation of a very powerful guy who used to be his boss’s #2 man “performed by” two very powerful university administrators was swept under the rug.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case, the theory that McQueary saying “sure” is proof he was really OK with it is the extraordinary claim.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
your answer here is then can also be used as proof that McQueary would have been too "meek" at the time to fully describe what he witnessed.
Cake: you can’t have it and eat it too. The McQueary who was strong enough to describe exactly what he saw in sufficient detail to Paterno/Curley/Schultz in the first place would be strong enough to tell the truth about his feelings of the outcome of the investigation.
Conversely the McQueary too meek to object to the outcome of an investigation because he’s too scared of the power players would also conceivably be too scared to sufficiently tell them what was going on.
Or it could be somewhere in the middle. But a claim that he was definitely strong enough to do the first, but definitely meek enough to not do the second is the exact kind of argument that people automatically dismiss because it isn’t grounded in reality and is the type of logic a 4th grader would have the ability to see through.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You're ignoring history
McQueary clearly wasn’t prepared for what he saw and wasn’t prepared for what to do about it. He had to consult his father to figure out what to do.
Now? He seems pretty sure of what happened – doesn’t he? But he’s not the newly-minted grad assistant now.
What could he have told
his dad that would have resulted in advice other than “Let’s call CPS or the police”?
I don’t know the relationship MM has with his Dad, but if you can’t unload this kind of shit on your parents who can you?
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
Your dad's boss, perhaps?
Oh wait – he gave exactly the same advice.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Don't know.
This will probably come out more in the trial. I get the sense a lot of people trod way too carefully in the misguided and possibly unconscious desire to protect the brand of the thing that kept most of them and their friends employed.
Since this is a new (and decent) argument...
I can’t see how bringing down Sandusky in 2002 would have really been that damaging to the Penn State (or Penn State Football) brand. Yes, it would have been a black eye on the place, but it surely wouldn’t have been the shitstorm that resulted in having two members of senior University administration implicated in a coverup.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Attaboy.
It’s just as effective as your normal debate style, and a whole lot less time-consuming to read.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Is this how it went?
MM: “Dad, I just saw JS do something unspeakably horrible to a kid.”
MM’s Dad: “Let’s call the police right away … hold on, where did you say you saw this happen? Let’s think about this awhile first.”
perhaps it was a subconscious desire to protect the brand
or perhaps it was lack of training/awareness on how to handle such a situation.
But what I was pointing out above is that you are SPECULATING about what McQueary did and why, yet you present it as if it is accepted fact.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
McQueary clearly wasn’t prepared for what he saw and wasn’t prepared for what to do about it.
In all seriousness, I’m pretty sure that nobody on God’s green earth would be prepared for what he saw.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
You can't make the corporate argument.
You’re trying to have it both ways and you can’t. You can not assert that McQueary was in a corporate structure while Paterno was able to supercede that same structure.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
"Why level downward to our dullest perception always, and praise that as common sense? The commonest sense is the sense of men asleep, which they express by snoring." -- Henry David Thoreau
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
I need to know, once and for all, am I an apologist or a cultist?
I can’t fit both titles on my new business cards.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
You're a cultologist.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 14, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Analrapist
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I have now
So you can see why I need to make a change.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
JoePapologist
How’s that?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
I appreciate the creativity
but it wholly ignores the fact that I belong to a cult. Maybe I could just add a single blue stripe to the back of the card (it’s white), so that people in the know would get it immediately.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
The reason Penn State transitioned
so quickly from the lion’s head to the chipmunk look is because someone forgot to trademark the lion’s head logo. You could add that without having to royalties.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Also evokes "papal"
which supports the canonization crowd.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
JoePapist
Santo Subito!
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Yes, and you were almost arrested for that signature line...
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter. If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 14, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Paterno...
stated he wanted to stay out of the way. He gets ripped for not doing more, but as someone else said, would more have been better? If he starts asking questions and it gets messed up then what? I understand what you wanted him to do, but a) it doesn’t mean the outcome would have been better and b.) doesn’t mean Paterno would have been right to do so.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 14, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Classic "Damned if you do,
damned if you don’t." scenario. Would have gone badly in all circumstances . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Regardless of what he would have done, the outcome would be the same.
There is a witness that can testify to the opportunity of a sexual assault. There is no victim. There is no one to attest to witnessing the actual sexual assault. Any follow up on Paterno’s part would have resulted in the same amount of evidence, and an insufficient amount to press charges.
Would his pressing of the charges, resulting in a larger investigation result in people being aware of the allegations? Based on the 1998 investigation which Paterno, Curley and Spanier were unaware of, it seems unlikely. The outcome would have been no different than the situation we’re in now. To claim any different would require additional proof, proof that hasn’t been discovered in 4+ years of investigations.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It
(a) means the outcome would have been MORE LIKELY to have been better
and
(b) it means Paterno definitely would have been right to do so.
Asking “whatever happened with that” is not messing anything up. Sorry, I can’t go there.
Fair enough.
Not sure about a.). I can see it turning out plently of ways where Paterno gets a whole lot of flack for not letting others handle the situation. As for b.) I don’t know. What’s he supposed to do with an answer to the question: "whatever happened with that’?
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 15, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Again, depends on the answer.
If Curley flat-out lied, then the kids are no better off but Paterno at least did what he should have done.
There’s a non-zero probability that Curley would be less willing to flat-out lie to Joe Paterno’s face there, though, and might actually tell him “yeah, we didn’t do anything with the cops” at which point maybe something WOULD happen.
and what if, in Curley's subsequent following up with Paterno
which was testified to (yeah, you’ll cry “but he’s indicted for perjury.” Does that mean if/when he’s cleared of those charges then that statement can come back and be accepted as fact? Also, he claimed his name was Tim Curley, does that mean if he is convicted of perjury that EVERYTHING he said was a lie?)
What if, in that subsequent follow up, he already flat out lied, or not even lied, just told the possible truth that they determined there was no crime and that they were just going to ban Sandusky from bringing kids onto campus. That seems like a conclusion to me, so what reason would Paterno have for further follow up after that?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Because in hindsight
9 years after the fact, that wasn’t enough to stop what happened. JoePa should have been prescient and knew what would happen in the future.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Well...
He was a demigod.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Depends what he told him.
If Curley told him “we looked into it and figured it wasn’t worth investigating”, then I’d hope Joe would have said “did the POLICE look into it”.
But this is getting extraordinarily hypothetical here, as you and the other apologists try to defend the indefensible – which is the basic moral requirement to ask “whatever happened with that kid”.
Which, again, Paterno said he never did. In his own interview, set up with the friendliest possible reporter.
A real point of contention here lies in your first paragraph
What reason would anybody (Paterno or otherwise) have to not assume that the appropriate people (in this case the Police), hadn’t looked into it?
The fact is Paterno involved the correct person in the processes. Any reasonable person in that situation would be comfortable with whatever response given by Curley. There would probably be some misgivings, and a general uneasy feeling, but why wouldn’t have Curley/Shultz done what was supposed to be done? Furthermore, what evidence is there to support that he didn’t actually do what he was supposed to? And I will pre-emptively say that his investigation turned up about as much as the 1998 one, with real cops involved.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and a DA
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
If I may -
Schultz had obvious financial motive
to cover up the whole thing.
Never mind that Spanier didn’t seem to have a problem with everything that went down…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Do not agree.
Paterno did not involve the correct person in the processes. The correct person would have been one or more uniformed police officers and/or the state child protective services people.
They would have been correct
But my point was really that a reasonable person had a reasonable expectation that by running it up the chain to the people that are supposed to know how to deal with this, that the correct people would have been involved. I mean, if Curley or Shultz contacts the police, then they were the correct people to contact initially.
Saying they weren’t because they apparently didn’t do their jobs correctly is judging a decision based on the results, not the decision making process. I prefer to judge a decison based on the reasonable expectations at the time.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
which the response will be
“but he should have followed up by asking the question anyone else would have, ‘what is the situation regarding Sandusky and the kid?’”
Then we reply, “Curley followed up with Paterno, maybe he gave a reasonable status update? Plus Paterno followed up with McQueary, maybe he also gave a reasonable status update. We probably shouldn’t judge Paterno based on not following up when maybe he did follow up a reasonable, if albeit insufficient in hindsight, manner.”
To which we are either ignored, or called apologists.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
No.
Again, no. Reporting to the top of the chain is not the appropriate or correct thing to do.
If I see a crime on my street, calling the city manager is not the right decision. Even if 9 times out of 10 he ends up just calling the cops for me.
if I was reasonably well acquainted with the city manager
and he had regular meetings with the chief of police, I would consider it a very reasonable and appropriate course of action to use him to get things taken care of. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean it isn’t, either. Sure in a purely “this is my exact job description and it doesn’t handle any input that doesn’t fit perfectly into my limited worldview” sort of way it isn’t the best course of action, but in the real world where people have real world human relationships with other real world human beings, that sort of thing happens (appropriately) ALL THE TIME.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 20, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
also, even if one concedes that it wasn't the appropriate action,
it doesn’t make it a negligent or malicious action if the person themself believes it to be the appropriate action at the time.
And on another note: even if he went to a uniformed police officer, there’s a less than 100% chance that the case would have been handled appropriately afterwards. Is Paterno still somehow culpable if that happens?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 20, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Paterno said
he should have followed up more. Not that he didn’t at all.
Oh and LOL @ your continued bullshit.
"should have followed up MORE"
but then it isn’t quite as convincing an argument when he says that Paterno says he never followed up in the friendliest of interview settings.
If there’s anything I’ve learned in science it is that when the actual evidence doesn’t fit your hypothesis it is a LOT easier to just change the evidence to make it fit than to have to make up a whole new set of hypotheses with corresponding tests.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you say it right here, "it DEPENDS on what he told him"
That is all (most) everyone here is saying. That it depends on what was told to him, and that we (as of now) don’t know what that was and may never know. I don’t see how that is an indefensible defense.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
if I'm told that at the conclusion of an investigation it was decided that a certain person was going to be banned from bringing kids onto campus
and that I then saw that person in the future (assuming not alone with kids) I don’t think I’d be like, “oh hey, this is different from what was decided, I need more investigation.” I’d probably be like, “oh, hey, this is exactly what was decided, nothing else to do/see here”
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 15, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely.
Everyone involved was satisfied with the outcome and Sandusky complied with the decision as far as we know (there has been no actual proof he did not comply, only sourceless rumors). To me that seems like a solid indication from an outside perspective (which Paterno was since he was not a witness and did not participate in the investigation) that everything was handled properly and the final decision was correct.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Under the supervision of how many child counselors?
Yes it’s a rationalization – but I firmly believe that’s exactly what Joe meant in his first statement after the shitstorm started when he said ‘a lot of people were fooled’.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
This is an actual good point.
But I’m not going to take you seriously when in another branch of this thread you make cracks about psychological study.
See how this works?
I see exactly how this works.
I’ve said on multiple occasions that I’m done trying to debate you – that doesn’t mean that I won’t occasionally drop a solid counter-argument for posterity. Think of it as me lighting a candle for you after you leave the bathroom.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Be fair now -
I wasn’t the one who brought up the inflatable friends.
I prefer a different tone of insult.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
You can't ignore a good point just because you think someone is a jerk...
There are not nearly enough questions being asked about the Second Mile (or the failings of the legal system). Which is at least one reason why most “Paterno apologists” are so infuriated by the focus on him. If we could ignore Paterno (and maybe even PSU) for just a few minutes we might begin to see just how much other people and organizations f’d this up.
And no, other people’s mess ups does not absolve Paterno of any culpability (real or imagined), but it does show a gross negligence of the real causes of the problem, which will inevitably lead to solutions that don’t address those problems.
Laws are currently going into affect in at least a handful of states that change their mandatory reporting laws. These are being referred to as “Paterno laws” in the media. Ironic, because Paterno did report.
I would like to see how many of those laws would actually make what Paterno did illegal in the eyes of the law. How many would actually prevent what happened at PSU from happening again? The only way those laws have a meaningful impact is if they require an eyewitness like MM to immediately go to the police or if every organization administration is obligated to go to the police with every single reported incident without fact checking them (which will overwhelm the police department with investigations that tax payers won’t want to fund).
These new laws, I’d wager, are almost 100% a farce created by lawmakers to capitalize on a sensational news story to try to show they are doing something their constituents care about (who doesn’t care about protecting kids?) so that they can get re-elected. They play off of the “story” that Joe didn’t report this properly and that’s the “problem” the laws aim to address. Except that “problem” they’ve identified is a mirage…
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 15, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Really?
You can’t ignore a good point just because you think someone is a jerk…
I can, because most of you guys are.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
To be more clear
Most of you guys think I’m a jerk and are thus ignoring all my points, which I think are pretty damn good.
Trending.
LOL
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Chill
you’re coming way too close to blowing the top off of this whole act. You’ve been able to walk to line where people think you earnestly believe what you say, while supposing it’s possible that you’re putting us on in some sort of Kaufmann-esque performance art.
Most of you guys think I’m a jerk and are thus ignoring all my points, which I think are pretty damn good.
When you say stuff like that, you’re coming closer to flipping the script and blowing your whole act. I do so enjoy this, so please don’t blow it now.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Feb 16, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Dear jesse.
This is what I mean. This is actually far worse than what you say I do – even if I believed you characterization of it.
This, and painting opposing points of view as “trolling”, puts the other person in a box where they either have to leave the accusation unanswered, or go highly negative.
Part of me still wants to offer legitimate responses to you occasionally.
I know that it won’t do any good, though, which is why I typically hit ‘cancel’ after typing a subject line to my response.
‘LOL’ really does seem like the best option most of the time.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
There it is.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
All the good bunnies are taken
so I’m going with a hare (I mean hair).
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
Man, can you imagine the attention she'd get in a lesbian bar with that hairdo?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
That only gets you banned
if you say it to Chris.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
by Paige2PSU on Feb 17, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good follow-up
back on track.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
"Highly negative"...
is always a choice.
Nobody makes you call somebody a “chattering jackass” any more than somebody made OctaShields write he wrote. You speak with your voice, he speaks with his, I speak with mine, and on it goes, this thing of ours.
So your point is that you’re not the worst? I might even concede that. But the irony in all the finger pointing demanding that others take responsibility…don’t you see that?
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I haven't ignored any of your points that I believe are valid.
In fact, there are quite a few things you’ve said that I’ve come to agree with/believe myself. But there are a lot of points that you think are pretty damn good that I, and others, refute with points that we think are pretty damn good, but you just dismiss them often without refuting them, just by saying, “well, I don’t believe it, and neither do the people I’ve chosen to listen to (whilst ignoring those outside this community who do share our beliefs. Trust me, you’re not the only one who has had non-PSU people in real life or the internet who have come out to show support or agreement), therefore you are wrong and a cultist”.
People tend to dismiss ad hominem arguments (on both sides)
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
But his damn good points
are based in common sense that any 3rd grader would come to. Ours are just the results of blind cult worshiping.
4th grader.
They’re a little too sophisticated for 3rd graders because he likes to use big words.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Volume.
Seriously. Volume. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stay on top of responding to hundreds of comments a day, when 90% of them are garbage?
If you honestly feel I’ve failed to respond to a very good point you made, then I’m sorry, and I’d be happy to do so again if you post it, and make sure it doesn’t get drowned in a giant wave of crap from the less serious apologists.
You have taken
on a huge cross. I’m impressed at how many comments you are actually able to respond to.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
ok, one of your continued and repeated arguments has been about Paterno saying he didn't follow up in the (friendliest possible) Jenkins interview
I and others have then used the actual quote from the actual article as follows:
How Sandusky, 67, allegedly evaded detection by state child services, university administrators, teachers, parents, donors and Paterno himself remains an open question. "I wish I knew," Paterno said. "I don’t know the answer to that. It’s hard." Almost as difficult for Paterno to answer is the question of why, after receiving a report in 2002 that Sandusky had abused a boy in the shower of Penn State’s Lasch Football Building, and forwarding it to his superiors, he didn’t follow up more aggressively.
Not following up, and not following up more aggressively are two very different things, and we don’t know what was actually meant.
I know you say that he should have specifically said, “What’s the status with Sandusky and that kid?” but 1) we don’t know that he didn’t ask that, and 2) even if he did, he may still have considered that not aggressive enough in hindsight if Sandusky were to still roam free and assault other kids
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
eh, I don't expect responses right away
I know people have real world commitments like work and sleep, so I’ll give it a few days. But this has been one of those lingering annoying discussion points that always seems to be ignored (the “more aggressively” part and speculation about what that actually means)
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 17, 2012 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
and I just did some of my own homework
I forgot that the actual article and the Q&A following it had some slightly different wording.
From the Q&A:
bq. Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
I really wish the entire transcript of her interview would be posted, and not just an editorialized version of his responses. She mentions McQueary’s testimony that Paterno followed up with him, but not Curley’s testimony that he followed up with Paterno. Did Paterno himself even bring up that he followed up with McQueary, but leave out any conversations with Curley, or did he just sorta ignore the point blank “Why didn’t you follow up?” question, and only responded to the “What SHOULD you have done?” question?
And then there’s the timeframe issue. When does he mean that he should have called Curley and Schultz to ask “where are we with this boy? and where are we with this coach?”? Does he mean ever, or does he mean further follow up well after the fact? (Not to mention that this isn’t really the easiest period in Paterno’s life)
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 17, 2012 8:53 AM EST up reply actions
Sally Jenkins' follow-up makes this more clear
That leaves open the question of whether Paterno understood the seriousness of what he heard and after his reported it to his superuors, simply turned a blind eye as a form of coverup, or didn’t follow up because he was uncertain of his ground and didn’t want to be seen as interfering. I don’t think the story solved that one. Paterno insists on the latter interpretation.
and
Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
I’ve already explicitly answered McQueary.
Less name..
calling would be helpful.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 17, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
Never thinking of that kid, ever again. Not how I want to believe he acted, yet it’s now the best possible reading. as long as you’re not in complete denial.
by M1EK on Feb 14, 2012 6:45 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Sorry we can't all be Jesus Christ and think of others all the time and its also sad you feel Joe was above not focusing on his own life during a difficult time.
Some people do allow for their families and lives to come first and when they feel they have done something that, at the time, seemed to be enough, they move on because there are bigger concerns at home. I feel awed by the fact that you feel you would be so much better of a person in times of personal hardship that after doing what is right, to continue worrying about something that was out of your control. I have had difficult times in my life and there are definitely things that in hindsight I would have handled better, things that were very serious. But at the time, the family and job came first and I didn’t really have time for others because I am not as morally right as you. I guess our biggest difference is that I do not judge the moral decisions of others because my failings are many. You obviously don’t carry the baggage that I do.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
by BMAN13 on Feb 14, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Well said, BMAN,
and well-deserved rec.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Nonsense.
He had years to remember to ask those questions, not days.
There were times between 2002 and 2008 (or 2011) when he should have thought to do so.
You are turning a years-long failure to ask questions into a one-day mistake. That’s not what happened.
And what indicated that further action was needed?
And please site sources if you are going to claim Joe saw Sandusky with children. It’s factless speculation that got us in this mess.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
No.
I don’t accept homework from jackwagons.
Paterno knew Sandusky was still working with Second Mile. I have no doubt of this. If you think he didn’t, you are asserting the extraordinary claim, and you are the one who must supply the proof.
So did all the people with more information than Joe.
Yet none of them objected. Joe’s opinion is the least relevant to this situation, even if he did dissent, it is not valuable compared to the people that know the facts and not simply the initial allegations.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
And I'm not asking for homework, I'm asking for a responsible conveyance of information.
Making sourceless accusations does not get us anywhere other than arguing potentially irrelevant hypotheticals. Providing sources helps keep the debates in the realm of reality.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
No.
Basic common sense. You know this is not a provable claim via reference in the time I’m willing to spend on it.
That’s what makes this simple homework generation rather than honest discussion. It’s simply ridiculous to claim that Paterno didn’t know Sandusky was working with Second Mile.
So what you're saying is...
that you come to the conclusions that you do because it’s easy and you’re lazy.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
It's very provable.
According to you, there were people that saw Sandusky every day. If he was with kids, someone should have said something by now. I have not seen anyone claim to have seen it.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Listen to yourself
I said “He knew Sandusky was around campus” and “He knew Sandusky still worked with kids”.
You’ve conflated this, for not the first time, into “SO YOU’RE SAYING PATERNO SAW HIM WITH KIDS ON CAMPUS. PROVE IT!”
I'm saying he never saw Sandusky on campus with kids.
This fits the sanctions placed on Sandusky by the people he trusted. If everything is how it should be, where is there a conflict? Remember nobody knew Sandusky was molesting kids.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
No.
If Sandusky fondled a kid, that ought to mean he doesn’t get to work with kids – at all. Paterno knew he was still working with Second Mile (no doubt in my mind on this).
Ask for proof all you want. The answer is that I’m not stupid. If you think Paterno didn’t know Sandusky was continuing to work with kids in Second Mile, on the other hand? You are stupid.
I want proof Sandusky was molesting kids.
And then I want proof that everyone knew it. Those are your acussations, where are your facts? One allegation of something of a sexual nature does not mean it is true. Show me something to prove it was true.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
'You are stupid'?
Is that the Advanced Rhetoric training shining through?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
No, he probably failed Advanced Rhetoric,
based on these arguments…
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Yes, I am on twitter. If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 16, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Key word here
IF Sandusky fondled a kid, that ought to mean he doesn’t get to work with kids – at all.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
It's also ridiculous to claim that Joe should have expected
the Second Mile was doing nothing (that I can tell) to protect their own kids.
Incident comes up, he passes it along, administration decides how to handle it, MM complies with administration handling, JS complies with administration handling, and part of administration handling is notifying the Second Mile… which should have resulted in a closer monitoring of JS’s interactions with children and limits to his contact with them outside of Second Mile sanctioned activities.
I can judge Paterno’s failing quite clearly. He could have done more, but he trusted the people above him to do the appropriate thing. They didn’t (either because MM didn’t really tell his story that clearly or because they did want this covered up), but they did do just enough that their actions can be considered reasonable (and perhaps even beyond what they had to do) if the conclusion they came to was that Jerry did nothing illegal. Curley/Schultz had Spanier sign off on their course of action, they banned Sandusky from bringing kids to campus (which he complied with), and they notified the Second Mile. This behavior by Curley/Schultz does not stink of a purposeful cover-up to any outside observer if you just consider the possibility that JS was innocent and that maybe they concluded there wasn’t enough evidence of a crime. If that was the final conclusion, Spanier had written off on it and agreed with the outcome, why continue to question it?
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 15, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Do the homework to back up that statement...
or it never happened.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
As described by Paterno to a grand jury 10 years later and knowing that Sandusky was being accused of a crime.
Do we know that Paterno described it the same way to Curley/Schultz? Can you prove, right now, that MM recounted the story and the illegal actions he saw to Curley and Schultz? And do we know that Joe’s final understanding of the incident was that it was illegal?
It’s quite possible McQueary could describe an illegal activity, it could get investigated, and the final conclusion could be that it was all a misunderstanding. Especially since, as I understand it, Curley and/or Schultz did in fact speak with Sandusky.
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 15, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Sandusky wasn't accused of anything at that point.
A fine point, I suppose, but still.
by Chris Grovich on Feb 15, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, which point was that?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I'm being unclear.
Sandusky wasn’t technically accused of anything during the GJ investigation. No charges at that point.
by Chris Grovich on Feb 15, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe it's a point of semantics...
but I’d argue that he was indeed accused, but not charged.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -- Albert Einstein.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
-Albert Einstein
Humanum est pati.
I don’t accept homework from jackwagons.
Also, you have no evidence to support the opinion.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 15, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Right, that's why his opinion is common sense and yours isn't.
That way, he doesn’t need to prove anything and you do.
as I said above, you are entitled to make your judgement
I just don’t believe you have ever been handed second hand information on a sensitive subject and had to make the call of whether to continue bringing up that subject. I have been placed in odd situations in my life, some of those times I feel I did well, others, not at all. I also know what its like to have to handle outside situations when the home front is a mess.
6/20/89 pink slip, will be laid off on 10/1/89 (job ended up saved by Gulf War)
6/23/89 dad dies
7/15/89 wedding day
7/19/89 grandmother, dad’s mother dies
Now throw in an incident brought to my attention while coaching a little league game on the 18th of June. Something I passed on and basically forgot about. Still don’t know if anything was done but there wasn’t much else I could have done and I really didn’t need an answer because it didn’t involve me directly.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
Both
Anybody with Paterno’s power should not just have forwarded and then forgotten. With great power comes…
by M1EK on Feb 14, 2012 6:38 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Another tired canard.
Joe had great influence, not great power.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Joe was a human being, I am a human being. Joe and I are/were equals on this Earth. I have never thought of him any differently. I am sorry that you did. When you place other humans above you or anyone you are making a huge mistake. Humans disappoint me but I know I have disappointed many in my life. I could only hope to touch and help as many people that Joe did in his life. He did a lot with his gift in this life. If you are disappointed by this incident, you have every right. Just don’t tell the rest of us how to celebrate or view another.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
by BMAN13 on Feb 14, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You are on fire this evening . . .
And dealing hi-test wisdom.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
Yeah, you're definitely anti-canonization.
I’m very proud to call you a fellow Apologist, though.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really...
put that responsibility on football coaches, even one’s like Paterno.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 15, 2012 7:07 AM EST up reply actions
I'm relatively new here
meaning I don’t know the personalities behind the screen names, though I haven’t detected many agendas here, most are seemingly good people who have provided a link back to my alma mater and who I have enjoyed ‘listening’ to. I’ve done about as much reading on this topic as I can spare time to do, and think I know the facts available to the public that are there to be known. I’m also old enough and experienced enough to avoid being enticed into the no-win argument with the drunk at the end of the bar. So I ask you this, Mr. M1EK, please articulate for me your evidence, not your opinion or conjecture, of exactly how Mr. Paterno legally and/or morally failed with respect to actions Mr. Sandusky is alleged to have taken…the whole nine yards of it, as we know it. What did he do that he should not have done, and what did he not do that you would counsel him to do, had you the opportunity to do so. It’s easy to play devil’s advocate when you’re not the boss. And even easier when the man you accuse wasn’t the boss either. I have read numerous comments where you insist he is not innocent, of “something”, and accuse his “coolaid drinking” defenders you obviously detest of blindly ignoring ‘facts’. I do want to know how you know these things you purport to know, what facts you’ve come upon that are denied to the public that brought you to these conclusions. Mr. Paterno’s stated wish that he could have done more is shared by virtually every Penn Stater, and I assume you are among our number. Does this suggest you believe you somehow share in his failure? As a senior leader I am fully aware of the fact a ‘commander’ is responsible for everything his organization does or fails to do, and that there is ALWAYS more that can be done within the contraints of time, resourses, and organizational structure. I’ve experienced my share of uncertainty and reticence; hope that hindsight won’t find me seeming foolish when men’s lives were in the balance. Yet regret for our human frailty doesn’t equate to a sentence, much less an undefined suggesion of “guilt”. If you are going to accuse the man, be a man, and state your accusations with a specificity that will withstand scruitiny and remove all doubt as to what you are trying to say. Prove to me I am ignorant in believing he did nothing wrong beyond a normal man’s inadequacies when faced with his personal armagedon. A simple request for information this is, recognizing it’s close to last-call, down there at the end of the bar
In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them
by PSUMarine78 on Feb 14, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Facts are for pussies
He’s an internet vigilante, god damnit!
Besides, he infers facts based upon incomplete statements. It’s a power that is only afforded to the few, the strong, the managers of software developers (sorry, your name inspired me and I’m a bit punchy).
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 14, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
You're getting drunk on Valentine's Day, aren't you?
It’s okay – so am I.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
I wish
16 hour day at work. Fortunately, I have a very understanding wife. Unfortunately, the next 6-7 weeks will be like that. BSD, booze and family (in some order) are the things that keep me sane.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 8:19 AM EST up reply actions
I've said this before.
He should have asked a few questions.
“Whatever happened with that kid and Sandusky?”
“Did you guys ever do a real investigation?”
“Did you report it to the real police?”
Based on the answers to those questions, that may have been all that was required (I don’t, as some here like to assume, demand some kind of vigilantism). If they flat-out lied to him there, I pretty much assume he’s done what he reasonably could do.
But he did not do so. He did not ask any of those questions. He admitted he did not do so when asked directly by Sally Jenkins in the friendliest possible venue.
Only if you assume that Curley didn't tell Paterno that the matter was dealt with.
Yes, I know, he is indicted for perjury. But you still have to assume that’s a lie, or your entire premise falls apart.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 15, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And the good news is...
Hopefully, we’ll soon see a response to the Bill of Particulars, and then we’ll know exactly which statements that the DA believes are false.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
No.
“dealt with” is not enough.
“We dealt with it” is insufficient detail to answer those 3 questions above, even if Curley did indeed say so.
How about "dealt with sufficiently"?
They don’t owe Joe any explanations. He was a third party that was a second hand witness without all the facts. What part of this makes Joe necessary in the investigation or explanation of actions taken?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This is stupid
He was the CEO of PSU Football Inc. This was a situation involving his former top lieutenant in his facilities.
Don’t start acting like he was the mailroom clerk again.
Stop making it a football issue.
It was an administration issue. Football is irrelevant as the person being accused was not under Paterno’s authority.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
When it comes down to it
This point really sums up a lot of the differences between those that think Joe should have done more, and those that think he reasonbly handled the situation based on the information he had at the time (even if in hindsight we believe he should have done more).
I don’t view this situation as a football problem. I view it as an administrative problem. I also view it as a Second Mile problem. The football program allowed Sandusky to use football facilities for his work in the Second Mile. They thought they were being charitable. Again, Sandusky used the football facilities only as part of of his Second Mile work. This wasn’t the only place where he was predatory.
As it stands, the head football coach and the eye-witness did the correct thing in the situation. That they expected the administration to handle this is reasonable.
But the fact of the matter is that this was not a football problem
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
*footnote
I’m generalizing in the first paragraph. I realize this isn’t the case with everyone, but it seems to be the case with most.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
No.
In this subthread, somebody was saying Paterno had no logical interest in seeing what happened, which is a load of crap. Paterno was the CEO of PSU Football Inc, and this involved his former top lieutenant. It could not have been more relevant unless Sandusky did his 2002 deed while still employed there.
This doesn’t mean that overall I view this as a football problem. It does, however, mean that the football coach (head of the football program) should have followed up.
With somebody other than Mike McQueary (for jesse.)
Thats what you think
I’m forming an LLC, for the sole purpose of printing business cards that say:
PSU Football, Inc.
psuphysicist, CEO
On a side note, which one of you lawyers wants to help me out with this?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
It's $130 to incorporate it...
But then they charge you $480 a year to main the LLC status. Fuckers.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Or just use your own SS number,
put a few ads in the paper, and run it as a sole-proprietorship.
Humanum est pati.
I'm sure he will be glad to get your rezzooomay,
if only to laugh at the errors.
J/K!!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
I may need one of those types to get this thing going.
I don’t know what we’ll do yet, but it will be something.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'm on board with this.
My engineering specialty is efficiency and keeping things running smoothly.
You can't form an LLC and then call it anything other than an LLC
I don’t want anything else to do with this except a business card when available.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Only if they are cool with being paid in beer
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Is there any room,
for a PhD in Health Policy and Administration? I can adivse you on health plans for the employees of the LLC.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
You need a health plan?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
Yeah
I think we can make some room here for a Health Policy Administration PhD. And a few professional students.
My business plan still consists of
step 1) Form PSU Football Inc, name myself CEO.
Step 2) …..
Step 3) Profit.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 17, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Good plan.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
my degrees will be somewhat useful
I swear!
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 17, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
Is this guy with you?
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Good, this is the solid lawyering I need
But the real issue with the LLC is that I was trying to avoid personal liability.
What do I need to worry about if I incorporate?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever he damn well pleases.
Starting with co-opting the name of PSU Football.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know yet
But since this is a start-up with limited resources (I’m paying my legal team in beer) I just want to make sure that if something does happen, that my personal assets won’t be fair game when anyone who tries to sue the company realizes that they will also only get paid out in beer.
Hmm.. Sounds like its some sort of Brewery.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
A regular C corporation will also limit your personal liability.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
Thank you
I will look into that as well I guess
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
It kind of weirds me out when you make a serious comment.
No bullshit.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
I didn’t know whether to take it as a joke or a legitimate suggestion. I chose to trust WorldBFat here though. It sounded pretty legit
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
He's correct.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 15, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Sometimes even I get a little weirded out when I realize my actual job requires me to give people advice that affects multi-million dollar business decisions.
Then I chuckle to myself and think about wheelchair basketball players trying to put a vest on a grizzly bear.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
by WorldBFat on Feb 15, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I love you.
I’m not ashamed to admit it.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Goddamnit
now this is all I’m going to think about during work today.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
there is no such organization
so it cannot be liable for anything
/goes back inside her magic forcefield
Bent But Not Broken
The bunnies are searching
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
We don't what he told him.
Or if he told him anything at all.
He could have said anything from “I talked to the kid and he told me nothing happened” to “Jerry admitted to corn-holing the kid in shower but we’re going to cover it up because we [a] really don’t care, and [b] think Larry Johnson might win Heisman this year”.
“dealt with it” is just what I wrote.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Ah yes... back to the 'real police' argument.
Notwithstanding the philosophical divide noted by SubLime above, the issue of whether one truly believes that University Park Police Services was a competent police force seems to be the crux of one’s argument.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
How people view the University Park police department depends on their viewpoint.
The people who support Joe and think Joe did what he could do rightly understand that the University Park police department is a legitimate, bona fide police department with the same authority, training, and responsibilites as the police departments in Philadelphia, Pittsburg, and Harrisburg.
The anti-Joe, anti-Penn State people wrongly view the University Park police department as a glorified version of mall security. As is typical with people in any discussion (politics, religion, finances), people will conveniently ignore facts that are contrary to what they believe, or want to believe.
by Ab4PSU on Feb 15, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The third option
is folks like myself that have worked with Centre County safety forces (Alpha Fire Co. in my case) and dealt first hand with personnel from virtually every police force in the county both personally and professionally. It was made abundantly clear that the borders of campus defined a separate jurisdiction and, while they had their quirks, the campus police were clearly THE police force within that border. We were not even first response for fire alarms on campus (and this was generally a good thing – if they did tap us, we knew something was going down).
by cs93 on Feb 16, 2012 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny.
Actually bounced off of it a few times.
I hope you weren't hurt!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." Joseph Vincent Paterno 1926-2012
awesome power source!
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
What would asking questions accomplish?
Do you believe that Joe saying to Curley “What happened to Sandusky?” after the investigation was closed would have sparked a new investigation on no new evidence? It’s clear MM, MM’s father, Curley and Schultz were satisfied with the outcome. Why would a less informed 3rd party’s opinion weigh more than theirs?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Depends
If Curley flat-out lied to Paterno, Paterno is off the hook, but kids aren’t any more safe.
If Curley was afraid to flat-out lie to Paterno (putting himself in more legal jeopardy), perhaps more happens.
What would have been a lie?
There is no victim, and there is no witness to the actions, only the opportunity. There is no need to lie to claim the investigation produced no proof of a crime.. From that point, banning Sandusky from campus with kids is a proactive step.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
That's an example of semantics.
An example of a lie is
Paterno never followed up.
You’re making an absolute claim that is wrong.
The fact is Schultz looked into the matter. He was the head of the university police. Whether he was technically a cop is irrelevant as there was no one else with the university who Paterno could have escalated the issue to. Absent evidence to escalate it to outside entities, it reached its zenith.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Wrong.
Schultz was not a police officer. He was not the chief of police (another ignorant canard thrown around by the apologists).
He was the dude who made spreadsheets about the budget of the police department.
He investigating it himself does not qualify as “the university police investigated this”.
It did as far as Spanier was concerned.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
I believe the analogy was 'City Mayor'
/steps back out of the fray.
//continues to find a way to start PSU Football, Inc
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Commissioner.
That or City Manager.
Either way…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know very much about municipalities
or townships, for that matter.
All I know is that if I know someone that works in a position of authority, I’m going straight to them. Whatever their title may be. And assuming that they will use said authority to get shit done
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 15, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Or report it to the correct people.
Especially if they oversee the correct people.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
I said he was the head of the department.
I never said chief or anything of the sort. I find it odd that a paper pusher would be witnessed organizing riot police. How does one accomplish that behind a spreadsheet?
Further, the escalation point still stands. There was no one internally to escalate it to and no evidence to take it outside.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
About this point
while he might not be the “chief” – it is recorded from the prelim trial that Shultz met regularly with Harmon – the chief of the Campus Police Dept – to discuss ongoing investigations. It is reasonable to assume that in telling Shultz one could have expected Shultz to tell Harmon (which should have been one but wasn’t).
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
No.
Missing the point.
The City Manager where I live meets with the police chief regularly too.
However, if I saw a child getting assaulted on my street, I would not call the City Manager. Ever. He’s a bureaucrat, not a cop, and even though he COULD tell the police to start investigating, he could also be subject to political or institutional pressure not to do so. He swore no oath relating to law enforcement and carries no badge.
This is an angle of It which really shouldn’t be debated anymore. If it were Paterno’s grandson, there is zero chance he would have just kicked it up to Schultz.
If it had been Joe's grandson...
we’d have all been debating back in 2002 what were the moral implications of Sue having killed Sandusky.
‘What if it had been his grandson’ is nothing but a rhetorical red herring.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
If I witness a child
being assaulted I wouldn’t call the City Manager or my Dad or my coach. If I was sure about what I saw I would call the police.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
I'd do the same, if thats what I witnessed
Crimes in progress have quick response times. Its what police forces are primarily designed to handle.
If I had only heard of a possible incident through a friend, I’d do the opposite. I’d call the city manager, particularly if I had a good raport with him. I’d assume that he would do one of two things:
1) Get my complaint pushed to the top of the agenda. Do you know how many police departments are so backlogged with cases that even these types of incidents don’t necessarily get pushed to the front? All of them. I have many good friends that work in various forensic departments across the country. Both the forensic departments and the police departments tend to be understaffed.
2) If he wasn’t able to get my complaint pushed, or had no authority or ability to do so, I’d assume that he would point me in the direction of someone who could, or tell me to go to the police.
The point is I would do everything in my power to find the shortest route to a solution, based on the circumstances. Different circumstances require different actions.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think so.
I’ve reported non-emergency crimes many times, and have never gone to various contacts I have in our city government. It’s just the difference between calling 911 and calling 311.
I've called 911 for non-emergency situations on several occasions and gotten a runaround.
So…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly don't know if Brighton Michigan has 311 service.
I know West Liberty Iowa didn’t, and on other occasions I’ve been in areas where I didn’t know whether they did or not.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
311 isn't the wrong decision
Its a very good decision, actually.
But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t potentially better ways to deal with things by bypassing a lot of the low end beauracracy. If the person that you are contacting to try to bypass that can’t, then they will let you know.
As an analogy. I know some people that are good fits for our company. So I ask for their resume and pass it on to my boss, who is responsible for their hiring. I skip HR, ensuring that the people with the right skills end up in my department instead of somewhere else in the company. I’ve also gotten resumes from people that were good fits, but for other departments. So I follow the same process. My boss then tells me who I can talk to that would want to take a look at the person, so I take it there, and let the person know. I’ve run into a resume or two that I was stumped on. In that case, I said sorry, but I think the best thing to do is go to HR because I can’t really help you.
The point is, using personal contacts can really be benificial, and be the right decision. They can even be a better decision to help streamline the process.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
So you're the reason all the good jobs are getting filled...
while I’m still trying to get my resume past HR.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Unless...
10 years later the guy you helped get in the door turns out to be a giant turd and by letting HR do the initial screening he would be their problem, except you took things into your hands.
Have you been checking up on his work these past 10 years to make sure he is doing what he is supposed to be doing? If not, that is on you too.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
by rahpsu92 on Feb 16, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not yet
I’m just getting my business plan off the ground right now. I’m hoping to meet with a few venture capitalists in the next few weeks to throw a couple million my way.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Personal contacts
are for getting jobs or for working around the process when the process didn’t work. You don’t start there.
jeez
Where do you live that you have had to report many crimes?
Or are you the guy calling the cops because the music is too loud, or the neighbor’s dog crapped in your yard?
UNCIVIL!
by letsgopsu on Feb 16, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
He's a pain in the ass in all realms!
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Feb 16, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
.
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
A week in the life
Monday
“Hello, police? Yeah, some guy I called a cultist at the bus stop today for wearing a PSU sweatshirt is, for some reason, trying to hurt me. Can you please come and remove him from my front yard?”
Tuesday
“Police? Come quick! I told my neighbor that his opinions on the color of the sky were nonsense and (mumbling) imayhavetoldhimthatifuckedhiswife (/mumbling) and now he won’t leave my front stoop.”
Wednesday
“Yeah, I’d like a large pepperoni with a 3-liter of Pepsi. Oh, shoot. Mean to call Domino’s. Sorry, officer.”
Thursday
“Send a squad car immediately, maybe a swat team. I’ve got three angry coworkers standing on the hood of my car because they couldn’t understand that all of my opinions are more valid than theirs. I’m at the intersection of …. listen for the sound of a screaming antelope.”
Friday
“Hello? Yes, this is M1EK. No, I will not hold. It’s a police officer who is trying to kill me!”
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 16, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I live in the UT equivalent of
College Heights – except there’s a lot more undergrads here (and bums), and they don’t behave as well as our undergrads did.
Over 10 years of being here, probably had to call in noise complaints 10 or 15 times. That’s “many”. Had to call in vandalism once or twice (not on my property), and a suspicious person a couple of times.
You felt the need to respond.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 20, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
And you missed my point
My point is Paterno had a reasonable expectation that Schultz would have reported this information to Harmon (we can assume that this is his expectation as McQueary had the same expectation and belief in Schultz’ role). Especially since Paterno neither witnessed the alleged crime nor was he given full details.
No one is arguing that Paterno couldn’t have done more. We are just saying with the facts that he had at the time of the alleged incident his actions are reasonable.
Question-for anyone-suppose Paterno did call CYF (b/c lets be honest he couldn’t have called the police since he didn’t witness anything) – with what scant information he could have given them-what logically would have happened? I am not familiar with the type of investigation CYF would have been able to perform.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Big Ten...or just lose the sweater vest.
Everyone...
reacts differently when it is there kid/grandchild. I would destroy the sun to make sure not a single hair was harmed on my son’s head. Someone elses kid? More than nothing, but far less than that.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 17, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Why was there a need to lie?
Again, all he had to say was “we didn’t find anything.”. Joe had no additional evidence to argue it. It’s a dead end.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
There has been so little
real information involving Joe Paterno in this fiasco. How do we know Joe didn’t pepper these guys with questions every day? Did Joe Paterno ever come out and say “I booted this thing upstairs and immediately forgot about it”?
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
He admitted that he never followed up with anybody other than Mike.
How do we know Joe didn’t pepper these guys with questions every day?
Based on the information we have, which includes Joe Paterno’s side of the story, this is not the case.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Jesse, honest question:
How much more could Joe really do since he himself was not the actual witness?
A co-worker told me his cousin’s husband is a police officer for the Hershey police department. He said the cop told him if you didn’t actually witness the crime, the police department wouldn’t act on it. Therefore, why is Joe villified for not following up? Who should be the one going to the police saying “Did you do any more with regards to the shower scene?” The person who it was told to, or the actual witness?
by Ab4PSU on Feb 15, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you're Joe Paterno asking about a child rape, I'd assume that standard is quite different.
by Chris Grovich on Feb 15, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I would agree with that, but as it stands, it was just something inappropriate.
As MM said himself, you just don’t say certain things to Joe Paterno. Again, remember, McQueary testified at the prelim he never said “rape, sodomy, or ever saw insertion.”
And I will also let it be known where my heart lies: I really cannot fathom that Joe would turn a blind eye to something this horrific, so yes, I probably do have blinders on and am cherry-picking certain pieces.
But, let’s just ask all ourselves a simple question: If something was reported to us, that was outside the scope of our authority, how far would any of us go? Who would truthfully fall on the sword?
He could have called CYF.
You can make an anonymous report to them, and they are required to keep reporters confidential. You can’t even subpoena them. He could have had Scott do it. The confidentiality requirements of the CYF system get you out of the “reporting it up the chain” trap.
That’s not just what Joe Paterno could have done, it’s actually what anybody and everybody should have done. In 2002, and today.
It’s actually the answer to the question.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 15, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Respectfully asking
why do you think “anybody and everybody should” go outside their organization’s policies? Assuming there is no crime in progress, don’t you think most people would assume that any organization with an explicit reporting policy would be set up to follow through appropriately.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
I didn't say he should not have told Tim Curley
Or that he should not have followed Penn State’s procedures. But no organization can have rules that preempt the laws respecting the reporting of Child Abuse. The original question is was what else could he have done. That was the answer.
I think far too much stock is placed on the fact that Paterno was given imperfect information by Mike McQueary. Joe Paterno could have very easily reported this to CYF, with nominal (almost insignificant risk) of it being discovered that he reported it outside of the University. Back in November, people were saying that if Paterno had reported it to anybody outside of PSU that he could have been sued for defamation, which is nonsense.
I think the belief that the University’s policy would be effective is reasonable, but it is important to realize that you don’t have to rely on it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 15, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess I was asking why anyone would think they should have to beyond policy. I agree that anyone could call CYF. I’m just not sure that most people would think it necessary (except, of course, in hindsight).
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by nps on Feb 15, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jesse. I understand
that you think far too much stock is placed on the fact that Paterno was given imperfect information by Mike McQueary and that Joe could have reported it to CYF. I disagree in that I don’t think enough stock is placed on the fact that Joe was lied to by a grad assistant who needed a job — and Joe had told that grad assistant he had no job for him. That grad assistant had a motive for wanting Joe Paterno to feel sorry for him. And interestingly enough, ended up with a job soon after.
Humanum est pati.
Interesting, Smee.
Had not heard that aspect before — thanks for sharing!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Any source for this?
This blows a major hole in the “petrified” grad assistant who was fearing for his job if he was told ne didn’t have a job to begin with. Unfortunately this just opens the door to “he was paid off for staying quiet with a job” speculation.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Page 23, Line 19+ of the preliminary hearing transcript
MM responding:
Q: What did you tell him?
A: I said, Coach, I need to come to your house and talk to you about something.
Q: Did he respond?
A: Yes. He said, I don’t have a job for you. And if that’s what it’s about, don’t bother coming over…
Humanum est pati.
It seems only just a kind of off-the-cuff response
that one might make to a phone call as a joke among colleagues. I’m actually surprised it was ever included except to be perfectly accurate. The call started off like any other day but developed into something really miserable.
Kind of like answering the phone with some flip remark only to have the caller tell you someone had died. You realize afterwards how inappropriate you action seemed.
Doesn't that read like absolutely typical Joe Paterno humor?
by Chris Grovich on Feb 16, 2012 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Or it sounds like after this was all put to bed he got a job.
It’s why you might go from terribly upset to “fine”. Right?
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
That's too far for me.
I mean, it can’t be ruled out, but I’m not prepared to believe that McQueary was given his job as a “hush money” sort of thing.
When did Paterno “follow up” (heh) with McQueary and ask if he was okay with the situation? My mental timeline of this stuff is shot by now.
by Chris Grovich on Feb 16, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Or it could have just been that McQueary deserved the job.
He was going to look at recruiting tapes at 8:00 on a Friday night, for God’s sake. You don’t find that level of dedication every day.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
I guess really close readings of the transcript can be a double edged sword.
It’s a pretty wild conspiracy theory. I’m just glad deadspin hasn’t ceased on it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Oh, seized.
Took me a minute.
I think it’s exactly what Chris and others have said above – it’s that Joe wasn’t entirely shocked to be hearing from McQueary bright and early on a Saturday, so he thought it was appropriate to throw out a joke.
If McQueary did actually have motives to keep quiet that were related to employment, a superfluous comment in a court proceeding seems like the last place he’d ever want to confess them.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think it's *that* wild, though.
McQueary doesn’t get an assistant coach job, goes somewhere else, and possible spills the beans about a cover-up of child abuse at Penn State.
Or, McQueary gets a job at PSU in a “keep your enemies closer” sort of scenario where he doesn’t want to risk his professional and personal reputation by going public with what he saw.
I think it’s entirely plausible. I don’t want to believe it, but it’s entirely plausible.
by Chris Grovich on Feb 16, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
So you think his courtroom 'confession' was just him trying to clear his conscience?
Mildly plausible, maybe. Entirely plausible? No frickin’ way.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
There are a lot of scenarios
which are plausible to different degrees. No one should get too excited about believing or discussing any one of them with any certainty.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Feb 16, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Wait, which confession?
Lost the thread here.
by Chris Grovich on Feb 16, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Why make mention at all...
of the idea that he was seeking a full-time coaching position, if he ultimately got that position as a motivation to keep quiet?
That’s the kind of stupidity that only exists in the minds of script writers who write lines for villains in James Bond films.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Plausible..
yes, but is their any indicaiton that McQueary wasn’t deserving of his job or was bad at it?
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 17, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Me neither.
I can’t go there. I don’t believe Joe Paterno would have done that – even the somewhat imperfect Joe Paterno those of us with a conscience now know to be the true one.
most of us
even those you deem “cultists” or “apologists” see Joe as an imperfect man, and thus a real person. You alleged differently before, and at least a few of those you called out as believing that refuted that claim point-blank. See BMan’s more succinct post for better point of view on this, but I’ve seen no one claiming Paterno was perfect. Or a diety. He was a good man, but still a man.
And you implying that everyone who doesn’t agree with you on all points believes Joe was perfect and equally don’t have a conscience is absolutely incorrect.
Fire Dan Snyder
by Cari Greene on Feb 16, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They refute the claim
and then still act in the ways that make the claim true.
Paterno did not do the right thing here. If you think he did, you are somewhere on the spectrum from apologist to cultist.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 20, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
It's the equivalent of what my grandfather would say
Any time I’d show up at his house “hey, whadda YOU want? I told you I don’t have any more money and your grandma’s not making any food” meanwhile smiling and opening the door.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Feb 16, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
I know I wouldn't have thought to go to CYF if this happened right now.
Though maybe I would have done a google search for “how to report suspected child abuse” and something along those lines would have come up. Instead, Paterno went to Curley and Schultz (also probably the people he went to when he needed someone to google something for him when McQueary was busy or had a conflict of interest)
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the thing, though...
How many of the people who would have done the investigating for CYS (either on the county or state level) were already directly involved with Second Mile? It’s one thing to look at a website and see that you can call them, but if you know that Dr. Jane Schmoe is one of their senior investigators and she’s on staff at Second Mile, then what would be the point of calling them?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Prior to this whole ordeal
I would have had no idea how to properly report something like this – especially if I didn’t actually see something, but thought something happened.
Until becoming a cub scout leader I’ve never gone through Child/Youth Protection Training. I had never given two thoughts about CYS and they wouldn’t have crossed my mind as a reporting option. It would have been a 911 call.
Naturally I would have the child in mind or else I wouldn’t be figuring out what to do, but I would also bethinking about how F@#ked the guy would be that I’m reporting on if I misinterpreted what was going on.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
Would it?
It would have been better for PSU, because it wouldn’t be their ass on the line. But why would the outcome be different. Once again, police were involved in a similar 1998 incident that went nowhere.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously
You have to admit that there’s a higher chance the police would have taken it more seriously than Schultz did, don’t you?
Might be the difference between 1% and 25%, which is still no guarantee, but a hell of an improvement. And if the police came across the 1998 allegations while investigating the 2002 allegations, the chance they’d take the investigation seriously would go up quite a bit more as he promised never to shower with a kid again back then.
I'm sure some detective would have taken it more seriously
But that doesn’t necessarily mean there would have been different results.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, true.
Nobody ever claimed there was a guaranteed alternate path that would have definitely stopped Sandusky, but it would have been non-trivially more likely.
LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 16, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Well, duh.
I don’t see how this indicates a moral failing on Joe Paterno’s part.
Your entire argument is like trying to blame a loss on a coach going for 2 while down by 1 with no time left in the game. In this case, the attempt failed and the team lost, so now the decision to go for it was obviously the wrong one. Of course it was, but that doesn’t mean the coach should be blamed for the loss.
by dbl5030 on Feb 16, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How about the child?
Everybody seems to assume that erring on the side of caution is better for the child. But what if the child was in no apparent distress, and I was concerned that I might have misinterpreted the situation? I’ve thought about what I would do in such a situation, and I would worry about the effect on the child of being questioned by CYS/police if nothing really happened.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
Eh...
I can make rationalizations all day, but even I’d have a hard time swallowing that line of reasoning.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
At least the Police/CYS are trained to
talk to kids in a manner that hopefully won’t scar them worse than whatever may or may not have happened. At the very least the child’s parent(s) have to be present for the questioning and made aware of possible improper contact.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
From the preliminary hearing transcript
Page 213, line 7+… this part was read into the transcript and is testimony to the grand jury. The question is from the AG’s office and the answer is from Gary Schultz.
Q: Do you remember to whom you would have or anyone would have made such a request, an individual, the name of the agency, where it was located?
A: I don’t recall the details, but I can tell you that there was an investigation earlier that the child protection agency – and I may have that technically incorrect, but it was this agency that I’m referring to that conducted an earlier investigation. So my recollection would be in 2002 that they were asked to look into this allegation.
Humanum est pati.
I've read that multiple times
and everytime it gives me a headache. Different headaches in different parts of my tiny brain.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
If the charges aren't dropped
I think their best defense is to give Schultz an IQ test and present the results to the court.
The whole "moral judgement" of Paterno
is based on one large assumption—that "more" action by Joe would have been "better."
It really shouldn’t matter what you, I, the BOT or the entire press corps thinks. What do law enforcement and child welfare professionals think Joe should have done? I’ve been able to find very little written about this (another press failure), but what I have found in random comments indicates that the reporting laws are designed to get a case out of amateur hands, in order to protect the privacy and identity of the victims and the integrity of any legal action.
The press could do a much greater service if they’d bring useful and reliable information to the conversation, rather than uninformed pontificating.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by nps on Feb 14, 2012 11:44 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
yeah, but then how would they make any money?
Seriously, how many of the millions of outraged would read an article entitled 5 Steps to Better Report Child Abuse instead of Joe Paterno Fired for Abetting Child Abuse?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 14, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
DAMN YOU JNITT!
Beat me by five seconds.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Anything other than uninformed pontificating is boring and doesn't sell papers.
Moral indignation – now that’s where the real money’s at.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I just thought that's gotten stale
and someone could make a big splash with some actual information.
Silly me.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by nps on Feb 14, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've been doing a lot of thinking regarding your final point.
The press could do a much greater service if they’d bring useful and reliable information to the conversation, rather than uninformed pontificating.
The problem is the line between media and press has become incredibly blurry, especially in sports journalism. Look at ESPN, the majority of their shows feature “journalists” who give their opinion on matters. While their primary jobs at their respective newspapers is to break news stories about their local teams and the sporting world at large, most of the media regarding sports is talk shows and other various channels of opinions. There are very few true sources of sports news that fits journalistic standards. Consider how many articles on ESPN and other sporting sites start with the word “Why” or other words that are attempted explanations or speculations. The difference between a sports journalist and a sports media personality is potentially impossible to make, and the result has been the incorporation of opinions with facts. It seems that now the industry is far more opinion-based and less fact-based, and the truth gets lost in it all.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
ESPN further complicates their situation
by hiring ex-participants (coaches, players, staff) who can be perceived to have a bias for or against another team, player, whatever. That those biases are allowed to be shared, unedited, undermines ESPN’s credibiility. Knowing that Dez Howard, for instance, will be pro-Michigan tends to make me less attentive to other points he may make.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
They're not even concerned about credibility anymore.
That’s the problem. They know that they are basically a network of sports affiliated people. If someone screws up, you can cut your affiliation with them and leave them to fend for themselves. Look how in practically every instance of something wrong happening at ESPN, ESPN never shoulders any of the blame. They merely apologize for the media personality that they place all the responsibility on. It allows them to avoid any responsibility. The few situations where they can’t shirk the responsibility, they just sweep it under the rug, a la the Bernie Fine tapes.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Good points.
Would not be surprised if Matt Millen is not there next year . . . .
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
He'll be around, but less frequently.
It’ll be ESPN’s way of showing him who has the power to give him a voice in the first place. Once they feel he’s sufficiently understood the message, they’ll increase his air time back up.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Putting ESPN aside
since the “E” does stand for Entertainment . . .
I have the same gripe with hard news reporters—and not just on this story. In so much news coverage, narratives develop because they sound plausible and comport with some of what we already know. The problem comes when this narrative becomes accepted fact, and isn’t questioned.
I’ve emailed dozens of reporters, columnists, and editors regularly to note this, and get either a benign “thank you for writing” response or none at all. Anyone else have any success in engaging the press?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
Dottie Sandusky
managed to get the attention of ONE reporter the other day.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
FTFY
Has Pulitzer Darwin Award written all over it.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is easily demonstrated in the panel style of shows that dominate news networks.
There are very few straight news segments anymore. Most shows select featured stories that their host of panelists then discusses. Some of the panelists are “experts” or other distinguished people in certain fields. The majority of content in these shows is opinions. If the people giving their opinions were truly experts on the subject matter, I would take less exception for it, however most of the time they are not. Most of the panelists are simply media personalities who support the narrative of the network. On the rare occasion that the network brings on two experts to address opposite sides of the issue, the pairings are usually very unfavorable. I remember a segment where the experts were discussing a marijuana debate, and they used Tommy Chong to support the pro-legalization side.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Looks like I was off by a day
And I had no idea that Rambler would return. Nostradamus I am not.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
Not getting involved in any of that coversation, so will jsut do this from now on
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 14, 2012 1:35 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Hey look! It's a squirrel! and he's water skiing!
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
Looks all cool
Like he does this regularly
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Coming soon to the Greensboro Coliseum.
As is the North Carolina Rabbit Breeders’ Convention — just in the nick of time!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Now that's funny -
My company’s web filter blocks that site.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Harsh!!
Your company’s web filter has a dirty mind!
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
I would like to be in that HR meeting.
Head of HR: We need to filter any content relating to squirrels.
HR Employee: Why? What is obscene about squirrels?
Head of HR: (stammering) Uh… um… just do it and stop asking questions! (exits to make emergency call to his taxidermist).
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Or could have been into a little of this...
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Honestly it looks more like Squirrel CPR to me.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Or is "into" that sort of thing
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Guy goes into the doctor's office
Doctor asks ’what’s wrong?’
Guy says ‘I have an orange penis’
Doctor says ‘Well that is odd – what do you do in your free time?’
Guy says ‘Watch porn and eat Cheetos’
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure all the good stuff come to the coliseum
After I leave
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
It's all part of the plan, Aries.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Where can I get one of these?
My little black lab can’t climb trees, tho God knows she tries, but she can swim like fish.
In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them
It's a competition
To see who has the post on the bottom of the page when the thread gets shut down.
And the winners is?…..
Humanum est pati.
Wait, did I miss the name-calling?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you ignorant slut!
(Sorry, couldn’t resist!)
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
That was a great line
From a very early SNL.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
Aries, I see your squirrel and raise you one
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Unleash the fluffy!
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 14, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I have an answer to a killer dog
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 14, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
IT'S THE BUNNY-ACOLYPSE
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Have seen the signs of this lately
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
You have just witnessed
The power of the bunny
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I will see you with the original killer bunny
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
by AriesGD on Feb 14, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
See people
This is the proper method of dealing with trolls. Do not feed the troll.
UNLEASH THE BUNNIES! AdamShell would be quite proud.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
"Cry, "Havoc!" and
let slip the bunnies of war!"
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Been really nailing the Shakespeare quotes here 84
First Julius Caesar, now King Henry V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
I thought that was Star Trek VI...
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
My advisor at State was a world-renowned
Shakespeare specialist. Dr. Meserole could spout Shakespeare for hours — it was like casting a spell.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Ahh nice
I hihgly enjoy Shakespeare, but am no where good enough to spout out lines and quotes like that. Have a few stock ones, but nothing impressive.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
It's all about cadence.
Once you get into a rhythm of a particular play, the words flow.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah I know
I have a few theatre minors, and did some Shakespeare, I just forget it. Can’t look at a situation and immediately have a few lines pop into my head. That is what I am more impressed about.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin
All's well that ends well.
“Would I were with him! He would always say—
Methinks I hear him now; his plausive words
He scatter’d not in ears, but grafted them,
To grow there and to bear . . . "
Of course, Dr. Meserole is dead now, so I don’t particularly want to be with him — yet — but he was awesome when he got started.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
what the hell happened.
pretty normal thread, I leave work, run errands, stop and drink a draught of Founders Double Trouble, have a guy offer to split a case of of it, pick that up, buy a VD card for the wife and some peanut m&ms, pick up some fresh bread to go with the shrimp and linguini I’m making for supper, open a Founders Double Trouble and there are 200 more posts!! and now Z doesn’t work at my home computer till someone else posts, so someone, please post!
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
is a VD card
something people with gonorrhea or herpes need to carry, like those bracelets for diabetics?
"my dad says Michigan used to be good"
by hbeach08 on Feb 14, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
DAMN YOU TOO HBEACH!
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure they can be redeemed
at all the same places where you turn in V-Cards
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
VD card?
Is that like “I’m sorry/Get well soon” all at the same time?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
And on the back is your
BlueCross/BlueShield member number.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 14, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
switch browsers on your home computer
try Firefox and rediscover the joy of the Z key
Bent But Not Broken
Props, you guys.
Usually these threads devolve into huge flame wars rehashing the same arguments over again. Those bunnies must really help.
This thread didn't even get shut down?
This place is becoming so mainstream.
"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace
Hipster commenter
Likes this thread before there were ANY comments
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Feb 16, 2012 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
Is it fair to say that the thread shutdown generating arguments have devolved to:
JoePa should have asked somebody “what happened with that Sandusky thing?” vs. JoePa didn’t really need to ask “what happened with that Sandusky thing?”
This ain’t exactly Lord Palmerston vs. Pitt the Elder.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
that's kind of the bare minimum position
because I got really tired of banging my head against the “Schultz was the cops” argument. It’s also a position held by almost everybody with a brain that it was unreasonable to never bother to follow-up, and was one focus of Jenkins’ interview as it was the thing that so many apologists SAID they needed to know to determine how to feel.
Lo and behold, Jenkins proved Paterno didn’t follow up, and the apologists didn’t change their minds at all. What a shock.
For the 100th time
Paterno didn’t follow up
This isn’t true. What you mean, and you’ve admitted that you mean, is the Joe Paterno didn’t follow up with, and I quote you, “anybody that mattered”.
You rhetorically leave out “anybody that mattered” to avoid the discussion of whether Mike McQueary, the person that made the allegation, mattered. It’s intellectually dishonest, and I will call call you on it every time until you take the extra five seconds it takes to type out your entire opinion.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 15, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
No.
it’s not dishonest. It’s a lack of pedantry. If I was in a court of law, this could be a relevant complaint. But I’m not, and you know damn well that the people out there who said Joe never followed up didn’t mean with the petrified powerless grad assistant who would just have said “sure” to anything at that point.
I sense a trend
and I approve. LOL
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
One dot is a point,
two dots make a line, three dots form a trend. LOL
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I can suss out a trend from one dot!
M1EK can do it from less than that.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 15, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
M1EK can do it from less than that.
Also known as “fabricating”.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
Most of the people out there that think Joe Paterno didn’t follow up, actually think that Joe Paterno didn’t follow up. Generally, they are surprised when I tell them that he did follow up with Mike and that Tim Curley “followed back around” with Joe Paterno.
It doesn’t always change their mind, but they are dissuaded from the notion that he never thought about it again. When you phrase your opinion without the relevant part, it’s misleading. And since it’s misleading in a way that supports your argument, it is intellectually dishonest.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 15, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
you are way ahead of me
most of the time people I talk to are surprised to hear that Sandusky had not worked for Joe for three years. And I quote one surprised co-worker – “that’s not what the TV reports made it sound like”.
Bent But Not Broken
So I'm honestly telling you this:
Nobody that I have talked to said that talking to the grad assistant would qualify as following up.
And we have no idea what Curley did or didn’t do.
What people wanted Paterno to have done was ask a few questions of the people to whom he handed the whole thing off to, especially when it appeared as if nothing substantial was done.
I am not saying this to be intellectually dishonest. I am saying it because it best represents what I believe the spirit of “following up” to be for somebody in Paterno’s position (head of the football program). If you persist in this claim, you are calling me a liar. Is that what you intend to do?
M1UK, you are basing a judgement...
On things that YOU CAN"T PROVE. You are the “Joe didn’t do enough” cultist.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, and in water there is bacteria.
David Auerbach
Say it!
SAY IT!
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
we don't know what was said when JoePa followed up with McQueary.
It could have been to say, “hey, have YOU followed up on the investigation. You are the only witness and they’ll need your cooperation in this matter”
To which he got the response, “yeah, they told me that since what I witnessed wasn’t a crime, just the opportunity for a crime that there’s nothing that can be done for now, and that they’re going to ban Sandusky from bringing kids onto campus and that they’ve informed the Second Mile about the allegations so that further precautions can be taken.”
To which Joe then said, “well, I guess that makes sense. So long as all the proper people have been informed and precautions have been taken.”
and Mike follows up with, “yeah…it sickens me to think of what could have been happening, but I can’t be positive so it ends like this.”
Joe: “well, know that you did the right thing in telling people about this. I’m sure a lot of people would have been too scared to say anything.”
Obviously that’s just one speculated conversation, but it is a reasonable conversation that could have happened.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like a load of apologist nonsense to me.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
It's a possibility.
I don’t think it a likely one based on all else that we know, but it is possible.
and what do we KNOW (read: not speculate)
that makes it more likely that McQueary was so petrified that he lied to Paterno?
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Can you stop with the petrified grad assistant already?
There is absolutely nothing to support this assertion whatsoever.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Dude was a pocket passer. Not very nimble.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
by WorldBFat on Feb 15, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well, them an More!!*
Bent But Not Broken
by letsgopsu on Feb 15, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
his name may not be spoken here
although we may have to change that to JS and allow the Morelli in
UNCIVIL!
Thing about Mike...
Was that kid could hit a guy on the dead run at about 50 yards. I would argue that no quarterback in the history of Penn State football could throw the bomb better than McQueary.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Maybe he should've been QB coach for McGloin then.
And I wish I were kidding.
No.
It fits every single thing about McQueary. He had to call his dad to figure out what to do, for god’s sake.
Calling his dad doesn't mean petrified.
It meant he didn’t know what to do and needed advice. You are adding in that he was petrified.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Any 4th grader could easily tell you
that you should ask your parents for help when you’re in a situation you don’t know how to handle.
I believe that was Paterno's motives.
He didn’t know what to do and passed it on to people he thought could handle it. Yet that is apparently the wrong thing to do in the world of M1EK.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Further, you are the one casting MM
as a poor, scared grad assistant fearful of taking on the beloved, long-serving former assistant coach/prof emeritous. Given your past characterizations of Red, it is natural for him to approach his father or other more senior person.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
He wasn't too scared to go to Paterno and subsequently Curley and Schultz,
but he was apparently too scared to voice his displeasure with the outcome to anyone at all. Same goes for his father and the doctor.. That makes no sense to me.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, just making sure this is something that could be hashed out in 30 seconds of live conversation.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
I have never seen someone so immune to facts
as our friend M1EK. Really amazing.
Might I interject a pertinent tangent: fictional delusions
fictional: Law an allegation that a fact exists that is known not to exist…
delusion: a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur, or Psychiatry a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 16, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Man...
I wish the PSU scandal was about the price of blow in State College.
"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Churchill
by Esteban d' Amur on Feb 15, 2012 11:44 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Why fight?
All of our comments are irrelevant - LetsGoPSU
by jaytay13 on Feb 15, 2012 12:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Caption: What ya doin Bugs? Just sniffing a little......
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
OK, I'm perturbed
I’ve been misled. Lied to. Made a fool of.
The headline reads, “now with 100% more ReadingRambler”
So I click. And I read. And I find what? Three, four comments by RR?! C’mon, that’s BS! 100% more RR would be like 30, 40 comments. What’s happening here?! Is BSD just using RR to get pageviews? To increase traffic? I know if it bleeds it leads in the MSM, but I thought BSD was above that?! Using RR just for his name because he is CEO of Civil War Inc – for shame!! Just because we’re cultist pedophile enablers we now have to be LYING cultist pedophile enablers?! Oh, the horror!!!
Humanum est pati.
by Smee on Feb 15, 2012 3:49 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
In fact, even if it read "Now with infinitely more ReadingRambler"
it’d still be an accurate statement.
It originally had zero ReadingRamblers, then it had one.
It gained 100% of a ReadingRambler.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Happy, Pappy?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
WOW, JUST WOW
Here I am trying to catch up with every new comment just since 1/2 hour ago. Now because the comments are coming so quickly, the thread keeps bouncing around. After having read some, not all the new stuff, I am fairly certain of this.
THERE MAY BE FIVE DEAD HOOKERS SOMEWHERE. But Im not exactly sure Craig James was responsible for them. I think they may be attributed to another certain someone. I think I will now go and call the police, because thats what I should do, its only common sense
This site slightly sucks today.
I think I’ll go do something else for a while. Like stick a pencil in my ear.
I'm a fan of slamming my hand in a car door.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
My shot at a summary:
The dissenting opinion in this thread is that MM told Paterno that he witnessed something extremely sexual. Paterno decided that instead of alerting the police, he would notify his superior who he has more power than, and also Schultz, for some unknown reason as if he wasn’t considered to be acting in a police capacity, his inclusion makes absolutely zero sense. McQueary meets with Schultz and Curley and conveys that he witnessed something of an extremely sexual nature. Schultz and Curley make no effort to investigate the incident and report it to Spanier as horseplay. They ban Sandusky from campus with kids. Everyone involved in this situation knew Sandusky was molesting children.
The motivations for everyone are as follows:
McQueary – petrified grad assistant too scared to act on behalf of the children for fear of his job.
McQueary’s father & Dr. Dranov – presumably fearful of costing Mike his job.
Schultz & Curley – administrators too concerned with the university to care about the children they knew were getting molested.
Paterno – not sure of motive, but knew that the incident was not handled correctly and remained complacent.
All of these things have to be absolutely true in order for M1EK’s assertions to be true. If any of it is not true, the entire thing falls apart. Also, in order for this to be true, the following also had to have happened:
Curley did not give Joe a sufficient explanation for their actions, yet Joe still agreed with them. McQueary, his father and Dr. Dranov all made no effort to voice their discontent with the outcome either internally or externally. There was enough proof that Sandusky would have been convicted had the investigation resulted in the filing of criminal charges.
This is what I’ve been able to put together based on M1EK’s arguments. M1EK, feel free to correct anything that you feel is incorrect in my summary of your arguments as I am not trying to speak for you.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:28 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, right.
I’ll play along and pretend that you’re not being disingenuous.
1. McQueary did what he thought was right at the beginning.
2. It is VERY LIKELY that later on, after nothing apparently happened, that he thought “oh, shit, I’d better not push this”.
The rest of this is Paterno trying to do something right (more than nothing, at least) but then never following up (SUFFICIENTLY).
I don't buy this at all.
Common sense dictates that after nothing happened, he thought the situation was handled correctly. I have a website that I frequent often full of people that back me up on this.
by dbl5030 on Feb 15, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you for responding.
You also have to assert Paterno knew McQueary was too afraid to push the issue and realize he changed his feelings as you just mentioned, right?
I am being genuine here. Even if this is the case, which we will disagree on forever, absent additional evidence, nobody would be able to press the issue. Without a child to present, CYS won’t waste the resources. Without a victim, charges will not be filed just like in 1998. The only way this gets anywhere new is if a victim is produced, a victim that cold only be produced by Sandusky himself.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
What are the Odds?
Okay, I am done arguing this on who should have done what. Instead, I am going to just do the math. We’re an engineering school, we believe in math, right ? (Even us Poli Sci majors!).
So let’s concede that Joe’s critics are right, and that any decent person would not have rested until Jerry Sandusky was behind bars. And let’s be cynical and say only half the human race is decent, and the other half consists of immoral reprobates who will let a child rapist go free. I actually think about 90 percent of folks are decent, but for the argument . . .
So McQuery sees what he sees, but unfortunately for the boy in the shower, Mike is in the bottom 50 percent. So Mike just tells his father, who is also morally deficient, and his father’s friend, another callous soul. And so on through Paterno, Curley, Schultz and the head of Second Mile. Formula for a 50/50 chance with 7 attempts is 1 over 2 to the 7th, or 1 in 128. What a tough run of luck.
Now, let me apologize in advance, I know I am taking too light of an approach to a terrible situation. But I am hoping to get someone to explain to me why, when any decent man would have gone to the police, this string of seven people in a row, all upstanding members of their community, all turned out to be moral reprobates?
A cover-up is not the answer – two of them heard McQuery’s story before Paterno did, and they had no reason to cover for Sandusky. Paterno did not cover it up, he sent McQuery to senior officials at the University who had connections to the police. They in turn told the head of Second Mile WHO BY PA LAW AT THE TIME WAS REQUIRED TO REPORT A SUSPECTED CRIME. Not the person you would tell if you were interested in covering this up.
This is just my way of saying that the odds that what happened ten years ago happened the way all of Joe’s critics say it happened just aren’t that good. I’ll take my chances as a JoePa apologist
by mountaindog on Feb 15, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
In lieu of a robust factual account, we are forced to draw inferences rooted in probability.
You do a nice job here of demonstrating which position requires the more strained stretches in reason.
"I think what the university did to him was grossly wrong" -- Mike Ditka
This is exactly what I was going for.
Unless the string of events happened exactly how I stated it above, it all falls apart. If any one of these individuals were not corrupted by ulterior motives, they speak up. And if they spoke up, they do not let the press drag their name through the mud for the last 3 months.
Based on the testimony of McQueary and his father, there is nothing to support the actions weren’t sufficient in their eyes. There’s nothing to support Paterno should have been suspicious of the outcome. There is really nothing to support that a crime actually happened.
I truly feel sorry for McQueary because he is being made out to be something he is not. The prosecution is trying to make him out to be the key witness, and people supporting the prosecution are trying to make it seem like he was too afraid to speak out.. The defense and those in support of the defense are trying to discredit him and think he’s lying. The truth is likely that he was just a person in a shitty situation he didn’t understand. The reality of the situation is that it was likely nothing significant in terms of Sandusky’s actions, yet it’s now suddenly having the entire weight of the investigation placed on it. It will be interesting to hear what McQueary has to say when this is all over because so far the only words we’ve heard from him have come from the defense or the prosecution when trying to support their side.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Very faulty logic
Those things are not 50/50 chances.
And being ‘decent’ is not the only variable here. There’s also “afraid to lose his job” and “afraid he won’t be taken seriously against the word of a demi-god like former Paterno coordinator”.
I agree
The odds are not 50/50, as I said, I think 90 percent of all people are decent. And my definition of decent, and I think most decent people would agree, says that given a choice between endangering one’s job and letting a child rapist, whom was just witnessed in the act, go free, any decent person would get the police involved. And of course, we still have the problem that no one, in court or out, has ever suggested Joe even asked that this be kept quiet, let alone threatened anyone if they went to the police. (By the way, at 90 percent positive outcome, odds of seven failures in a row are 1/10,000,000. Appreciate your pointing out to me that the odds were not 50/50).
Not getting the point.
#1: I do not believe some combination of Curley and Schultz to be decent. Do you? After what we’ve seen here?
#2: There are other variables. I gave you several other variables for McQueary. There are others for Paterno and the other people involved as well.
The point I'm trying to get at here M1EK,
And I do appreciate you responding, and I hope that the civility continues, is that for your argument to be correct, absolutely all of those things have to be true. What happens in these threads is that we argue the individual components of the situation until we’re blue in the face, and nobody’s opinion changes. I will agree that the above scenario is a possibility, however implausible I think it to be. However I feel that there are still a great deal of scenarios out there that are plausible as well. Given that those scenarios are still valid, it is still too early to judge, especially given that if any of the details of the above scenario end up being completely invalidated, the entire scenario falls apart.
To be fair to you, I will give you my understanding of what happened. McQueary was uncertain of what he saw and asked his father for advice. His father gave him told him to talk to Paterno and Paterno passed it to Curley and Schultz because he felt they were more apt to handle the situation. I truly believe Paterno thought Schultz was acting in a police capacity because otherwise his inclusion over however many other VP’s there are makes no sense. Paterno put his absolute faith that these two men would handle the situation correctly, and when they arrived at a decision that was approved by Spanier, he accepted it. Once he followed up with McQueary regarding how he felt about the whole situation, any reservations he had were erased and he considered the matter closed.
If any of the particulars in the above situation are false, it doesn’t invalidate the rest of the scenario. If Paterno knew Schultz was a bureaucrat and not the police, he still included him for a purpose. Since there has been nothing to indicate that Paterno was trying to keep this situation quiet, and that is the only malicious motive for including Schultz, I think it’s fair to say Paterno included Schultz because he thought his inclusion would be a positive addition to the situation. There are too many things that remain uncertain to cast absolute judgments. You are entitled to your opinion and it is not your opinion that I take issue with. It is your claims of absolutes without any conclusive evidence to support them. Again, thank you for responding and for your civility. I hope that you do not find anything in this post disrespectful.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 16, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
needs to be repeated:
Since there has been nothing to indicate that Paterno was trying to keep this situation quiet, and that is the only malicious motive for including Schultz, I think it’s fair to say Paterno included Schultz because he thought his inclusion would be a positive addition to the situation.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 16, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Let's be clear
I think Paterno sinned the least of all the actors here. That being said, it is not rational to assert that he thought he was getting the cops involved by calling in Schultz.
He knew Schultz was just a bureaucrat. Paterno was not a stupid man, and he had been the head coach for the university since my parents were undergrads. Schultz had been there since just about then as well (my mom worked with him in the 1970s).
honest question:
What was Schultz’ role throughout that time period? Was he associated with the police for a sizeable chunk, or is this a recent addition to his resume?
I like to think of Penn State as a family. Paterno and Schultz can be considered to be brothers in law, or somewhere along those lines. If I was handed a very difficult situation like this, I would try to get help from the person closest to me that would have the best insight of what to do. Heck, in real life my brother in law IS a high ranking police officer in his department (actually turned down being the chief). He wouldn’t have jurisdiction in any case I’d ever observe, therefore no power and wouldn’t be the “right” person to go to, but he’d be familiar with how the legal system works, and would have the contacts necessary to handle an investigation. If he told me “I’ll take care of it” I’d sure as hell take his word. Your counterclaim may be, “but he is a sworn officer,” but I’d just as readily go to him if he was just a forensic analyst in my local PD.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 20, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
No, you are not getting my point
All the PSU critics say, in some form or another, that “Any decent person would have put a stop to this.” I say, 90 percent of the people in our country are decent, so what are the odds that you would find seven people in a row who are indecent? Yes, there are always reasons why people might chose not to act when faced with a moral dilemma. Otherwise, it would not be a dilemma. But faced with this dilemma, you weigh the options (fear of losing your job, fear of JoePa, embarassment, whatever) and then make a decision. After you take your action, if it becomes public, people pass judgement on your performance. If you did not act because your life was threatened, or you there was some other compelling, offsetting reason, then you can still be what the public considers a decent person. But if you allowed a child rapist to go free because you were intimidated by a supervisor or were afraid of speaking truth to power, then you are not considered decent. Because the critics are saying no one in this chain acted decently, they are saying that none of them had compelling reasons not to act. So I am back to my starting premise, what are the odds that seven people, with no reason that a neutral critic would find compelling, all chose not to act? And my answer is, that they did not see this as the moral dilemma we are seeing in hindsight. They did not think they were dealing with a child rapist, they thought they were dealing with something less threatening, and so did what they thought was right.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 15, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is one pissed off looking rabbit.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 15, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
You'd be pissed too if you looked like a turd.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Oh man, did you guys see what happened in that other thread?
On that other topic? Over there? Something else?
Man, it’s wild. Better go see.
"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace
by PSUinBOSSton on Feb 15, 2012 4:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Red herring.
Boss just trying to get hits on his post about how Penn State should add numbers back to our helmets.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Did you see where BOB said he wanted names on the jersey?
Except he insists they be the wrong names, and can be peeled off to have another name underneath. Some new strategy he’s working on.
"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace
by PSUinBOSSton on Feb 15, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
"Holding by Smith --
no, wait, Jones — uh, hold on, it was Johnson . . . Oh, forget it — play on!"
Zebra confusion.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
M1EK:
"Is that a shot at me? 'cause that makes me want to read it all the less."
by MainLion on Feb 15, 2012 9:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I get it.
He’s rolling the dice (taking his chances) on knocking some sense into the cultists, right?
"I'm gonna challenge these people to
a game of “Rock, Paper, Scissors” — I’m just warming up."
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 15, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, I think he's doing the dice move to much.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 16, 2012 8:07 AM EST up reply actions
So, I just happened to stroll by this thread and noticed it had "591 new comments".
Somehow, I knew a M1EK debate had to be the culprit.
"I guess we had a couple of Catholics praying for US!" - JVP, after the down to the wire win over Notre Dame in 1987
He's a fan
but he rarely comments on anything unrelated to the scandal. Hmmm.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 16, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
He's a PSU grad, not sure if he's a fan.
He came on BSD with some perceived baggage since most know that Mike BSD banned him for some reason years ago. On Slow States he never sopke too highly of the BSD hive mind so I can’t say I’m surprised by our current situation.
"If there’s a villain in this tragedy. It lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it," ~ Phil Knight
Not much football going on right now.
And, jesse.? This is the kind of crap that makes me want to go negative. Hard.
I would assert that those who want to protect the fictional version of Paterno and PSU are not true fans.
Well thats that then, nobody is allowed in Beaver Stadium again because we are not true fans.
However, I will hold M1EK responsible and claim he “should have done more” when some fourth grader blows themselves up and others when they are trying to light their tailgating grill.
Right
Because the rest of my comment was waaaay off. LOL.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 20, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Don't be so hard on yourself
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 21, 2012 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
Hey look another thread, another name calling disaster.
Kevin, Chris, anyone with power on this site, when is enough, enough? When was the last time M1EK commented on a thread and it didn’t turn into this? Maybe Mike was onto something when he banned him so long ago. Something has to be done because this just isn’t working. This guy is trolling, pure and simple, he knows no one here is listening to him and when someone does attempt to actually have a discussion he blows off the first reasoned response with ‘well you were mean to me before so I’m not answering’.
Just hit the ban button on him and BSD can start moving beyond all of this.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
by Rogue Nine on Feb 17, 2012 7:55 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Let's not go to extremes ... how about
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me'.
Erma Bombeck
by ComfortHePuHuTh on Feb 17, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
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