Curley's lawyer asking for charges to be dismissed
Interesting to see how this plays out now. Everything seems like such a huge screw up from begining to unfortunate end IMO.
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I find it interesting that his lawyer also asked for the exact testimony the perjury charge related to. It would really suck to be charged with lying to the court and not even know the statement that you made that caused the charge. I have been wondering since the Curley/Shultz charges came out what it was they actually lied about. Does anyone really know? Did they lie about what they were told by MM, did they lie about what they did? has the AG ever stated what they lied about, because I don’t recall. I remember media types saying but never the AG, it very possible I just don’t remember and it was very clearly stated by the AG, I just don’t recall ever hearing what statements were made that related to the charges.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
by BMAN13 on Feb 13, 2012 12:12 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think the Grand Jury believes they lied about being told that...
some sort of inappropirate sexual activity was reported to them. And I have to admit, I think given what McQueary supposedly told them (not Paterno) that they are guilty. Why? Because they subsequently banned Sandusky from bringing children on to campus (again, subject to some debate). You don’t ban someone for “horsing around”.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6
by LB31Monster on Feb 13, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
According to their Grand Jury testimonies...
Paterno and McQueary are in agreement that McQueary told Joe about something sexual. McQueary says that he told Schultz and Curley about something sexual. If McQueary didn’t even go into explicit detail with Paterno as to what constituted ‘something sexual’, yet still managed to get his point across, then how did he supposedly tell the more explicit version to Curley and Schultz yet fail to convey ‘something sexual’?
…and you may not ban someone for ‘horsing around’ if you’re sure that’s all that happened, but you do take steps to make sure somebody doesn’t mistake ‘horsing around’ for something more serious in the future.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Which is why I think the G.J. indicted Schultz and Curley. They instituted a ban. Therefore, they knew it was serious.
I just don't want to die without a few scars. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6
Yeah, the argument makes sense...
but misunderstandings of this nature are serious.
And this is where Curley/Schultz get into trouble. I’m sure they took this seriously. I mean, even if McQueary just said “I saw JS in the shower with a boy in Lasch at night” that should be taken seriously by the administration. But that kind of statement wouldn’t warrant the pressing of charges or reporting to police. What I worry is that MM’s actual statement may have been closer to that than it was to “I saw JS doing something sexual with a boy in the showers at Lasch.” In one instance, you take it immediately to the police. In the other, you do what you can to ensure nobody has a chance to misinterpret those actions in the future.
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 13, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
That is my biggest concern as well.
I really believe that at the time, McQueary did not convey that he considered it sexual. I think that he merely conveyed what he witnessed, and through hindsight attributed the sexual characteristics to the incident. It might be my bias, but that’s really the only way I can understand 5 adult men being informed of the situation and not doing more than just banning Sandusky from bringing children onto campus.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 13, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
My belief was that the perjury related to them claiming they were never told of something sexual.
I agree that I think it’s a stretch, however I still think it’s entirely plausible. McQueary’s own testimony stated he didn’t use any sexual words. I think right there they can plead ignorance and stupidity if nothing else. I’m also still curious as to how McQueary’s understanding of the incident has changed over time. If his initial account of what he witnessed didn’t contain any sexual language, I really think he’s remembering somewhat incorrectly the degree to which he considered it a sexual assault. We know of 5 people that he described the situation to, and not a single instance included the terminology he is currently claiming to have witnessed.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 13, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
I've harped on this...
I’m also still curious as to how McQueary’s understanding of the incident has changed over time. If his initial account of what he witnessed didn’t contain any sexual language, I really think he’s remembering somewhat incorrectly the degree to which he considered it a sexual assault.
I think his initial interpretation of the events, especially considering a long history of knowing and idolizing Sandusky, is a lot more favorable than jumping directly to “oh, he was definitely sodomizing a boy in the shower.” In fact, MM at that point would be looking for ways to interpret what he saw that was more in line with what he knew about JS (i.e., making excuses that explained away what he actually saw). After 8 years of thinking about it, after finding out that there where other victims, and after some coaching from the prosecution, it’s easy to imagine that MM has re-interpreted what he saw, re-interpreted his role in the affair as being much more proactive, and/or that he is motivated by some sense of duty to now more staunchly defend these kids that he didn’t back then.
McQueary’s testimony brought all of this focus onto PSU, which is fine if the administration deserved it. What I fear is that he hedged what he saw when recounting it and never pushed the issue farther to indicate his displeasure with the handling of it. Both things would allow the administration to believe they had handled this to the best of their ability. And both things could be expected to reasonably result in the conflicting stories we now see.
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 13, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I truly think that he was fine with the actions taken.
I have seen nothing to really consider that he felt the actions taken by the administration were not enough. He still hasn’t made that assertion given what we are aware of now. I think the only real criticism he has a right to claim is that he made Curley and Schultz aware of a situation where they should have considered the possibility that it was sexual even if McQueary himself hadn’t. I know that this is contradicted somewhat by Paterno’s testimony that McQueary said it was “fondling, or something of a sexual nature” (I would also like to know that full quote because I believe it wasn’t an absolute assertion by Paterno), but if Paterno felt strongly that it was sexual, I can’t imagine him being satisfied with the actions taken by the administration, and I have seen nothing to support his dissatisfaction either.
Absent any indications that either Paterno, McQueary, or McQueary’s father and Dr. Dranov did not feel the actions taken were satisfactory, I really think the assumption needs to be that the allegations raised were on a level that preventing Sandusky from bringing children to campus was acceptable. Clearly sexual abuse of a child would warrant much more action than that, so I think the initial allegations were that it was an uncomfortable situation much more than a sexual one.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 13, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There's one big gap in the storyline
Why did C&S wait about ten days to interview MM? I’ve tried to put myself in his place as low man in the hierarchy being left all that time to cool my heels. I can imagine each day feeling that no one was really taking me too seriously. If the subsequent meeting was as short as mentioned (10-15 min?), that doesn’t seem proactive on the part of C&S. If, indeed, C&S were making some moves or decisions during that gap time w/o talking w/ MM first, they didn’t even have the full picture for even making any decision(s).
Since I have recently decided that the tin foil hat fits well lately, they waited 10 days because they had to inform the BoT of all the pertinent info. The BoT was in charge of JS’ emeritus status and they would be somewhat connected to the HR dept of which Schultz was also the head money man. They also had more members that crossed over to the 2nd Mile. The BoT then ran its own secret investigation using all of their secret society contacts in the Masons, Odd Fellows, Knights of Columbus, BPOE, Moose and Eagles clubs and could not pin anything directly on JS and therefore ordered the campus ban on children. :)
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
Leave out the lodges, and I'd agree with this.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah it was totally the Rand corporation.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
Reverse Vampires?
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
We're through the looking glass here, people.
"Goodnight, Gorbachev"
I say and kiss my pillow
In my bed alone
I should have used the sarcasm font on the lodges
not serious about them. The rest? I don’t know what to think anymore.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
I honestly don't care whether the lag was due to waiting for feedback from the BOT or not.
What matters to me is that the BOT, whether directly or through their proxy Graham Spanier, (in accordance with Standing Order IX) gave at least tacit approval to Gary Schultz representing Police Services for the sake of conducting internal investigations. They either gave authority to someone who should never have had it, or signed off on his work without questioning it. Either way, they’re the ones who fucked up.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
this raises a very interesting point I hadn't thought of before.
How could so many (McQueary, apparently McQueary’s dad, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier) have thought that Schultz was the appropriate person to handle this investigation?
Incompetence? Perhaps to some extent, though by all measure these were all extremely competent people in their normal duties. Perhaps the uniqueness of the situation threw them into a false sense of competency?
Conspiracy? I just don’t buy it. These people, again, were all very intelligent, competent people. I’d imagine they’d be able to actually formulate a proper conspiracy if that was their motive, and not just, “oh, let’s cover everything up but make zero attempt to actually corroborate our own stories or plan for keeping this secret in any way”
Perhaps some other options? I don’t know.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 14, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
At the end of the day...
the only person whose opinion of Gary Schultz’ abilities matters is Gary Schultz. He declined to let Tom Harmon know that a potential criminal act was reported, and in doing so he took it on himself to play judge and jury. I blame both Schultz and the people who entrusted him with the authority to make that call.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Other option
is that some of those people knew Schultz wasn’t the appropriate person to handle the investigation (defining “appropriate” as “actually do it”).
That option was negated the second Graham Spanier signed off on the remedy.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 15, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Did it have anything to do with Spring Break?
From what I understand, MM saw it on the Friday when all the students left campus for Spring Break. So were C&S gone for Spring Break, too? I have no idea. Not sure if that had anything to do with it or not.
Penn State... from the outside you can't understand it, and from the inside you can't explain it.
they were not gone on sunday morning, that is when Joe spoke with them
My opinion, the administration did some checking, maybe even spoke with Sandusky based on Joe saying “something sexual”. Gathered info, maybe ran it by other people that will not admit to being involved and then after MM had cooled from the initial shock, spoke to him to see if his recollection was of a stronger/worse situation than what they discovered in their pokings around. Tin foil is still fitting.
"It doesn't matter what people think of me," Joe said. "I've lived my life. I just hope the truth comes out. And I hope the victims find peace."
My recollection is Sandusky says they called him.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
what about McQueary? Maybe he was gone for Spring Break?
He was just a graduate assistant, still young enough to have plenty of friends going away.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 14, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Recruiting trip maybe?
He did say that he went to his locker to get some promo tapes of high school players on Friday night.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I read this initially as another kind of tape
VERY inappropriate for this train of thought, and skeeved me out
Fire Dan Snyder
I was about to tell you to get your mind out of the gutter.
Then I noticed that promo and porno might be uncomfortably visually similar.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 14, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Not to pick on poor Red,
but now I’ve heard three versions of why he was in the locker room: (1) Putting away shoes, (2) getting tapes, and (3) getting ready for a work-out.
Not blaming him for all the ambiguity, but the multiple stories on what brought him to the facility AND what he saw/did afterwards have to make him a prosecutor’s nightmare.
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 16, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Paraphrasing his testimony at the C&S preliminary hearing:
Sitting at home on a Friday evening… watched a football movie… got all jacked up to watch recruiting tapes… figured as long as he was going to his locker to get the tapes, he’d take his new shoes along to stash in his locker.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks, 418.
Helps me understand there were not multiple explanations of why he was there. Any insight into the alleged multiple versions of the story Mike has told over the last few months?
"Make haste to reassure us, I beg you, and tell us that our fellow citizens understand us, support us, and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.
"If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the fury of the Legions."
by PSU_Lions_84 on Feb 16, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I have yet to see anything that I'd call an outright contradiction in Mike's versions of events.
Anything that’s been directly attributable to Mike has had varying degrees of emphasis on different aspects of the story (‘I did make sure it was stopped’ could easily be an interpretation of slamming his locker then making sure Sandusky heard him and stopped), but I haven’t seen anything that can’t be reconciled with anything else. The presentment is another matter – it is a potential interpretation of one of Mike’s versions of events that doesn’t square with another of his versions. That doesn’t mean his own interpretations conflict with each other, only that a third party can take (somewhat) reasonable liberties with what he said on one occasion and come up with a story that runs counter to other descriptions that he’s given to other people in other venues.
I bet SubLime or BNitts would be able to say this much more succinctly…
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 16, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
You sure do...
if that “horsing around” could be viewed in any was as inappropriate but not legally actionable. After all, banning him from bringing kids onto campus would insulate the University from future misunderstandings.
In fact, if you just for a minute forget all of the other allegations and allow that McQueary didn’t give too many details of what he saw (or was not even sure of what he saw), then banning him from bringing kids onto campus is a fairly reasonable response, especially if you don’t think you can do more. It is quite possible that Curley/Schultz both thought that maybe he really was a pedophile, but it is even possible that they knew about the 1998 investigation (at least Schultz did) and didn’t think they could make anything stick given charges were not pressed before. Is banning him from bringing kids onto campus, just to be safe, not a good idea if they felt they really couldn’t do more?
Obviously the argument is that they could have done more, and I’m not going to try to argue against that, but banning him from campus even if you thought you couldn’t or didn’t need to escalate farther is better than nothing. As is reporting the incident to the Second Mile, which again is not something you would do if you were actively covering this up.
And, frankly, JS seems to have actually followed the mandate as I have not seen any word of JS on campus with boys after this… which, in combination with him voluntarily telling the Second Mile that he was under investigation, are the ONLY two things that make me think that maybe Sandusky could be innocent (although really not smart about observing boundaries). If Sandusky is a pedophile, his compliance with PSU’s ban and his notification of the Second Mile are two things that would “voluntarily” limit his access to and influence over children. My take is that kind of self-restraint is just not really in line with grooming his victims or with a person that compulsively commits this sort of crime.
But to get back to the article, I continue to not see a case for perjury against these people. Very odd that they don’t know what they said that was perjury. Very odd that the state would pursue charges when even Paterno’s testimony couldn’t corroborate what MM said to Curley/Schultz since he wasn’t at that meeting. Again, I think the AG needed MM’s story to be strong so that they could pursue charges again JS. I also think the AG probably believed that there was an active conspiracy to bury information about this case and hoped that the perjury charges would “shake something loose” in getting more evidence to come out again PSU. Now, months later, and after most of the outrage has died down, there doesn’t seem to be anyone bringing more cold hard facts and the facts that exist in regard to these perjury charges seem pretty flimsy.
There’s no question in my mind that Schultz/Curley walk from the perjury charges as long as the perjury charges relate to what MM allegedly told them in that meeting. I don’t see, legally, how they can’t. And, if they walk on those charges, I think it really hurts the prosecutions case against JS when it comes to MM being a ‘credible witness.’
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 13, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
The more I think about it...
the more I’m intrigued by the theory floated on here the other day that the Perjury charges were the AG’s office beating the bushes, looking to scare up a snipe who would incriminate more University administrators.
The longer this goes on, the more firmly I believe that the people most to blame beyond Sandusky himself are either the people (BOT) who explicitly gave Gary Schultz the authority to represent Police Services, or (Graham Spanier) who signed off on Schultz’ ‘investigation’ without uniformed police involvement.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 13, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
If the prosecution truly needs MM's testimony to make their case, I think they're in trouble.
There is nothing in his testimony to support anything other than an opportunity. If there was a victim for this incident, MM"s testimony would likely support their account of the events, however the victim appears to be absent. There is no way MM’s testimony will be enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Sandusky was doing anything sexual with a kid.
I think it will also have negligible impact on the remaining charges as well. From what we are aware of now, the prosecution has a collection of alleged victims that will likely result in their accounts of the incidents vs. Sandusky refution that they occurred without any additional evidence to support either side. In addition to the victims’ accounts, the prosecution will likely have MM to testify that he once experienced an opportunity for Sandusky to have perpetrated a sexual act.
I truly hope that if the allegations are true, the prosecution will be able to put together a stronger case than that. It is my understanding (and hopefully some lawyers can confirm or deny this) that most criminal cases do rest mostly on circumstantial evidence and not definitive proof of a crime. All I know is that if i was on a jury and asked if I felt based on the evidence I’m aware of that Sandusky is guilty of the allegations beyond a reasonable doubt, I would have a hard time saying yes. I would (and do) believe he is guilty in my personal opinion, but that’s much different than saying he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 13, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
I would (and do) believe he is guilty in my personal opinion, but that’s much different than saying he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
The problem, it appears, is whether testimony from the victims is considered enough proof or not. Certainly the number of victims helps each individual story have more weight. In which case, the “reasonable” part of that phrase is pretty important. The only obvious motive for lying about something like this would be to collect a big payday and the connection to PSU would provide that ability… BUT… I don’t think it was obvious that this was connected to PSU when the first couple of cases (or at least the first case) came forward other than the fact that it was an ex-employee being accused. That’s the part of this that makes the victim testimony pretty compelling.
That, of course, does not mean that anyone else at PSU purposely covered it up.
Bad judgment, not understanding the full weight of the situation, mis-communications, passing the buck… all possible. But nothing I’ve seen has been consistent with a cover-up.
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 13, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
There was an article where Poz says he saw Sandusky on campus with kids all of the time.
Not sure if it was “Sandusky and kids alone” or “Sandusky had Second Mile organization events with lots of kids around”.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 13, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
No mention of kids that I could find
Paul’s quote around Nov. 7 was:
It’s really, really hard to believe because he’s — Sandusky was a legendary coach that everybody held in such high regard. He was a very respectable, very honorable guy. That’s what we all were led to believe. I just can’t believe it happened. He was done coaching in ’99, but he was still visible, he was still around. Like I said, legendary coach. When guys would see him, man that was a hall of famer. And that’s how we looked at him. We obviously had no idea what was [happening].
- Florida Times-Union (their brackets as well)
yeah, I seem to be mistaken
the specific reference I was thinking about was with an interview on ESPN where he said he saw Sandusky on campus all the time, and then quickly went into how he was so involved with Second Mile, and how the players could always go there for charity work. That must have gotten twisted around in my mind to just assume that there were kids present as well.
by The JuggerNitt on Feb 14, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
If you and I can fill in a narrative like that
Once can see how people with pre-existing biases will do the same thing. Not saying it’s correct. But I understand.
The entire sequence of events suffers from this.
It would be interesting to separate fact from fiction about what, when, and how JS truly interacted with Penn State and the staff after 1999 and after 2002.
Apropos of nothing
other than it is three months later and my tax dollars are still paying CoreButt, Kelly & Noonan (AAAUUUGGGHHH!)… When I clicked the PennLive link a banner ad showed up with details of the Whitney Houston story. Does anything good EVER come out of getting into a hotel bathtub?! Tip for travelers: only use the shower, get in, get out, be done, stay safe.
Humanum est pati.
I'll admit I haven't read through this stuff in a while
But thinking back to what I heard during the perjury arraignment, I thought that the perjury charges seemed a little weak. Perjury is knowingly lying while under oath (generally – I don’t know if it has different facets in Pennsylvania; I’m only licensed in Texas). It didn’t sound to me like whatever Curley OR Schultz said (although Schultz’s testimony just seemed to make him look like an imbecile) sounded like some sort of outright lie about a statement of fact. They both recounted what they recalled of the events and while the stories aren’t matching word for word, they didn’t appear to me to rise to any sense of “lying.” Hell, it’s not like there’s even an absolute story that everyone can base what happened on in the first place… it seems everyone has their own recounting. I don’t recall (not to say it’s not in there, of course) Curley or Schultz saying they didn’t know anything about it… now THAT would be perjury by definition. Stories that don’t corroborate 100%? Ehh… good luck with those charges.
(Please bear in mind I am in no way, shape, or form advocating that these men behaved appropriately. I’m just commenting from a legal perspective.)


























