Michael Smerconish: JoePa was not 'real trustee' of Penn State
Which was it? The certainty of "I had never heard a thing" or the sworn testimony of "It may have been discussed in my presence"? What exactly did Paterno mean when he said "it may have been discussed in my presence, something about somebody." One possible interpretation is that he was referring to the 1998 incident.
4 months ago
M1EK
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Ignoring any and all things concerning you entirely..
Maybe, since the best the author could come up with is such hard facts as: maybe Joe was told of “fondling”, and maybe Joe knew about 1998; then maybe this article should have been titled “Maybe JoePa was not ‘real trustee’ of Penn State.” Seriously, this article doesn’t have a single piece of information that isn’t conjecture and speculation whatsoever. Its the basest level of blamestorming, an OpEd made to look like reporting.
Deus nobiscum, quis contra?
I don't know, but they did it. They've done it before and they did it tonight and they'll do it again and when they do it-seems that only children weep.
by chocochuck02 on Feb 6, 2012 9:20 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
I'm going to start a paper
To pen a story stating roughly “Maybe, if we didn’t spend 3 months beating a literal and figurative dead horse, we could have ever mentioned the estimated 62,700 children that have been sexually abused since November 7th, 2011. But that’d never show our hate of all things child abuse as much as discussing the 1 and maybe 2 children in this case that maybe Joe Paterno heard about.”
Deus nobiscum, quis contra?
I don't know, but they did it. They've done it before and they did it tonight and they'll do it again and when they do it-seems that only children weep.
by chocochuck02 on Feb 6, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Thank you Michael.....
for providing yet another example of an “interpretation” of what Joe might have meant of a conjecture of a contrary view of Joe….too late…it’s just trash reporting to those who will blame Joe for JS’s Evil….basically it’s another bunch of chicken-crap reporting(?).
" The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the TRUTH, so help me God."
by DerryPharmer on Feb 6, 2012 9:24 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
And.....
If you or anybody wants to do some investigative reporting, let’s start with the Guv, the AG, tBOT, the Second Mile Group and some guys named Spanier, Curley, Schultze, and Surma and some of the parents of the abused for example….that will keep your editorial lean busy. Oh, did I forget to mention that I am heartily against child abuse of any kind. I am sure that Joe was too, so please no more enabler sh*t, please.
" The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the TRUTH, so help me God."
by DerryPharmer on Feb 6, 2012 9:34 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
Why do you hate us?
Bent But Not Broken
by letsgopsu on Feb 6, 2012 10:03 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
not trying to start a pile on
You knew the reaction this would get, you are a smart man.
Did you expect different results this time? That we will finally say “you were right, we were wrong”?
Because that is not going to happen, at least here. Right or wrong.
Bent But Not Broken
The answer is
that people who say bad things that make me look bad by association need to be challenged in order for me to feel like I did something to make up for those bad things.
Look at this thread – I left it alone for an hour, and it’s a feeding frenzy, and each of the people below thinks they’re more civil than me (they’re not); that they’re less ignorant than me (they’re not); and that they owe it to the world to let everybody know. And, if course, if I don’t address each point in each one of those 25 comments (and counting), and address them individually instead of generalizing, I’m somehow the bad guy.
And all this does is confirm the mass media narrative that PSU is a bunch of Joe-worshipping cultists, because you are unwilling to even address the points of view that the rest of the world feels are pretty obviously true.
I was also specifically advised in another thread to go make a FanShot or FanPost instead of complaining about the lack of coverage here. Don’t forget that.
I am tired of the fake sympathy for the victims.
His eulogy, which was devoid of any mention of the alleged victims in this scandal
How are people seriously outraged by this? Why must they try and force the victims into every conversation regarding Paterno? If they are going to mention the 1 victim that Paterno had some knowledge of (the degree to which has not been determined, but is far from knowing everything), then I’m going to start bringing up every football player and student whose life he improved. For every minute they make a cheap ploy for sympathy (which ends at the condemnation of the least significant person in this situation and never progresses towards actually taking action to help victims or identify the people who were most accountable), I will force them to sit through a minute for each of the hundreds of thousands of people Paterno helped. And once we get through the football players, students and affiliates, I’ll start naming the people involved in the Special Olympics whose lives he and Sue also had a profound impact on.
If people would start looking at the facts and stop grasping at straws, maybe we could actually have civil discussions on the matter. Instead of trying to prove your agenda by assembling some of the pieces and ignoring the rest, take an objective approach to the matter and try to put the puzzle together including all the pieces. You’ll find very quickly when forced to use all the pieces that there is no basis for ill-intentioned motives or neglect. The best you would be able to produce is that Paterno remained willfully ignorant of the issue for a variety of reasons, and that is only after taking into account that he saw to it that the witness was given direct access to the people Paterno felt were the best equipped to deal with the situation.
When the argument for your side rests on disingenuous ploys for sympathy, editorialized “facts”, a complete disregard for contradictory evidence and takes aim at the person who was least involved with the situation, maybe you should take the time to judge yourself before judging someone else. If you were truly outraged about child abuse, you should be going after the people whose responsibility it was to put an immediate end to it. For all the “Paterno apologist cult” shit that gets alleged about this site from the poster, this is also the only site where I see consistent attention being thrown at Corbett. If you’re so outraged against child abuse, why not direct it towards the person who was aware of allegations for YEARS and didn’t just ignore it, but provided $2 million in funding to the charity that was directly associated with every alleged incident of abuse? It’s a pretty easy case to make, yet M1EK spends more time on this site vilifying Paterno to show his outrage against child abuse than doing anything to actually bring down the man responsible for nearly all of the alleged victims, not just 1.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 10:08 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Because I don't buy into conspiracy theories
and the stuff about Corbett sounds like one.
If you want future actual honest answers, try not burying the lede, OK?
How is it a conspiracy theory?
The man was involved in or knew of 4 grand jury investigations into Sandusky for child abuse. I’m fairly certain he was the AG during the first of the 4 recent ones meaning he was the person responsible for starting it. Do you really think that it’s a good decision on his part to award $2 million to a charity he knows is under investigation for child abuse? Not to mention he accepted $50k in campaign contributions from Sandusky, while he was aware of the impending investigation against him. It’s undeniable that he knew of the accusations that Sandusky was using the charity to sexually abuse children. You don’t think either of those 2 actions could be unethical and put children in danger? Isn’t that what you’re so outraged about? You keep screaming about child rape enablement and you ignore the person who was aware of EVERYTHING and still gave $2 million in state funding, our money, to a charity he knew had serious accusations of sexual abuse.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You are making several gigantic assumptions.
Assumptions which I do not view as likely, or at the very least, supported by the most likely interpretation of events based on what we know now.
And, yes, your entire paragraph does, in fact, sound like a conspiracy theory.
Could be true. Not likely, though. Conspiracy theories usually aren’t.
Where is there an assumption in there?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Which is supported by the fact he was the AG and initiated an investigation.
He was aware of the allegations. He was aware of the victims accounts. There’s no assumption there. There’s no assumption he awarded $2 million to the Second Mile, there’s no assumption he accepted $50k in campaign contributions. Those are all facts that you write off as “conspiracy theory”.
Your reaction to Corbett completely proves your motives, and it is not to help victims of abuse. It’s simply to vilify Paterno for the sake of vilifying Paterno. You clearly have no regard for the victims since you refuse to look past Paterno in this matter. Continue living in your house of straw perched atop your moral soapbox. I’ve had no desire to argue with you, but when you post op ed pieces and misinformation, I felt a need to correct you. You clearly have no desire to be correct or to try and make anything out of this situation other than a chance to take shots at Paterno for some unknown reason.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
How is it that he can't make assumptions
yet the assumptions you make are ok?
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 6, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He doesn't understand the difference between facts and assumptions.
It’s evident based on the terminology he uses and the structural components of his arguments that he considers his hypothesis to be right, and as long as there is any ambiguous components to other theories, his hypothesis is correct. This is reinforced by his refusal to acknowledge the assumptions and speculation in his own arguments despite clearly pointing them out (sometimes incorrectly) in the arguments of others.
He also doesn’t understand the constructs of logical assumptions and illogical ones. Any assumptions made that are based on solid facts are refuted as assumptions, even though there is no evidence (such as the one we have here regarding Paterno needing to follow up). Despite the fact that we do not know Paterno’s final understanding of the 2002 incident, M1EK dismisses any counter argument that is based on the logical assumption that Paterno considered the matter closed and the appropriate actions dealt with. He instead continues to believe the illogical assumption that Paterno felt there was a need for more action to be taken and he just didn’t do so (which is not supported by any evidence).
It’s also apparent in regards to Corbett. The absolute facts in the matter are that Corbett was aware of the investigations as he started them. He was also aware they were going on while he decided to run for office, where he accepted $50k in campaign contributions from a man he knew was currently under investigation. Those are absolute facts. The only thing that is an assumption is that he awarded $2 million to the Second Mile while being fully aware of an ongoing investigation. I haven’t looked into the matter enough to find any absolute facts that he was aware of something, however I think it is a logical assumption that since he was previously aware of the investigation and the allegations involved in it, he should check to see the outcome of it prior to donating $2 million to the Second Mile. If Joe was supposed to follow up on something regardless of his understanding of the matter, the same principles apply to Corbett needing to follow up prior to allocating $2 million to Sandusky’s charity. Yet somehow that principle isn’t transitive in the eyes of M1EK, and when it is applied to Corbett it is a “conspiracy theory” yet when it is applied to Paterno it is absolute fact.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You don't buy conspiracy theories
But you put forth the idea (months ago) that Joe covered up the scandal to (pick one): protect his job, protect his pay check, protect his old pal; even though there was no evidence pointint to those specific reasons.
Your real motivation – like everyone else – is that you only like conspiracy theories that support your specific position.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
by kijana's acl on Feb 6, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Holy shit, nice signature. I'm pretty honored.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong.
Stop lying. I did not say he covered up the scandal to do those things. In fact, I have made it clear on numerous occasions that I believe Joe Paterno’s sins were of omission, not commission.
It is important that we consider other points of view
and the question of what Joe meant by “it may have been discussed in my presence, something about somebody” is a legitimate one. However, the above article seems to ignore the next line in the transcript : “I don’t know. I don’t remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor.”
My interpretation of the lines of the GJ testimony transcript in question are that Paterno honestly did not remember hearing a rumor, but couldn’t be completely sure that he didn’t. If I was being questioned under oath, I would probably err on the side of caution unless I was completely sure of my answer. If I was giving an interview that obviously had a PR dimension to it, I would probably be more firm. Nothing in the above article indicates to me that Paterno lied in the Washington Post interview. The worst I think you could claim that he did is commit more strongly in the interview than he did in testimony to not having heard anything. I guess some people might interpret that as being misleading. In my opinion, it is extremely minor. It certainly isn’t enough to change my opinion of how he acted in this situation, or of his overall life and legacy.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 10:21 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
It should do a couple of things
It should point out the difference between the Post interview (where he was in a friendly venue and not under oath) and court proceedings (where he was), which is a distinction I tried to make for a long time. Even somebody who is interested in nothing more than absolute and complete honesty will behave differently in those two situations.
It should also point out that smart people in the rest of the country continue to resist the canonization effort. With good reason.
I was never unclear on any of those things
Nor am I trying to canonize him. He has to work two miracles before we have that discussion.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Smerconish also had this to say about Paterno:
JoePa will not be a good prosecution witness. McQueary himself acknowledges that he did not provide graphic details to Paterno (“out of respect and just not getting into detail with someone like Coach Paterno”). He appeared in front of the grand jury for only seven minutes, but his limited words suggest his frailty as a witness. Though he confirmed McQueary said that what he’d seen was of a “sexual nature,” how seriously could it have been presented when Paterno also said he was reluctant to intrude on anyone’s weekend with a report?
Sounds like Smerconish doesn’t think Paterno was really aware of much in regards to the 2002 incident. I take it you ignore this article though since it doesn’t fit your narrative. Link
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It completely fits my narrative.
But thanks for playing.
Paterno was made aware of enough to require him to ask, when he saw Sandusky around for years afterwards, and knew he was still hanging out with kids at his charity,
“hey, whatever happened with that investigation”
of somebody. Anybody.
This is twisted by people on your side into me supposedly claiming he should have gone vigilante. Nonsense. He should have asked a few questions.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore, but since you see fit to claim assumptions even when it's fact:
You have no idea what Paterno was told regarding the outcome of the investigation. Your assumption here is that he wasn’t given enough information to consider the matter closed. Hence your statement:
Paterno was made aware of enough to require him to ask, when he saw Sandusky around for years afterwards, and knew he was still hanging out with kids at his charity,
Your entire outrage about Paterno “not following up” is predicated on the assumption the investigation was left on ambiguous terms with him. There is NOTHING to support that assumption, yet that is the basis for your entire argument. We do not know the specifics he was given by Curley and/or Schultz regarding the investigation, however we know that the information they possessed was enough for Spanier, Curley, Schultz, McQueary and McQueary’s father to all consider the matter closed. Logically, since the witness and the investigation (the 2 key components of the matter and the 2 parties with the most at stake/most involved) considered the matter closed, it makes sense that Paterno, absent additional information that neither of those parties had, would also find the outcome acceptable. That is a logical assumption. An illogical assumption is, given all those parties were accepting of the outcome (supported by the court testimony of MM regarding Paterno following up) as well as the actions taken by Curley and Schultz, that Paterno, absent of additional information would not find the actions taken to be an acceptable and conclusive end to the incident. This is the assumption you’re making and you are absent any evidence to support it. Further, if you claim that Paterno was aware of the 1998 investigation, it still doesn’t nullify the logical assumption as that was also information Schultz was aware of, meaning it doesn’t fit the criteria of “additional information that neither of the parties was aware of”.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
You missed another huge assumption
Paterno was made aware of enough to require him to ask, when he saw Sandusky around for years afterwards, and knew he was still hanging out with kids at his charity,
1. So what if Joe saw Sandusky on campus. As long as he didnt have kids in tow, then obviously Sandusky was following “the punishment” Curley/Schultz/Spanier gave him after the incident. The same punishmnet that Curley testified to notifying Joe about afterwards.
2. Do you, M1EK, have any proof that Joe knew that Sandusky was hanging out with children afterwards. And besides, Jerry Sandusky is a grown man capable/incapable of making his own decisions. Is it Joe’s responsibility to keep tabs on past players/coaches, current players/coaches, and any future players/coaches as well as the rest of humanity that your requiring him to have done?
by BRJ75 on Feb 6, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I tried saying this below
An illogical assumption is, given all those parties were accepting of the outcome (supported by the court testimony of MM regarding Paterno following up) as well as the actions taken by Curley and Schultz, that Paterno, absent of additional information would not find the actions taken to be an acceptable and conclusive end to the incident.
I think you said it better. I don’t know that I would go so far as to say it is illogical. But I certainly think it goes beyond what can justifiably be expected of a reasonable person. Eh, maybe that is the same thing as illogical. I totally agree with your main point, though.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Regarding the illogical description
I do not mean it as illogical in that it doesn’t make sense. I mean it as illogical that is it not supported by evidence. I personally feel like Paterno could have handled the situation better. My belief is that he should have contacted the police immediately. Clearly that can only be stated with hindsight as he may have been under the impression Schultz was the police (it’s unknown, but not completely illogical since MM claimed to believe he was the police).
My biggest problem with arguments against Paterno is that they place a larger burden of proof on him to exonerate Sandusky (or at least find the actions taken against him) than they place on the investigation (Schultz, Curley & Spanier) and the witness (MM and by extension MM’s father). If your argument is that he didn’t do enough, and you continue to dwell on that, then you must make the same argument against everyone else involved. There is a disproportionate amount of criticism aimed at Paterno that is not even being aimed at Sandusky. While you can consider it a product of the disproportionate volume of debate regarding Paterno individually, it’s very disingenuous to claim it’s “on behalf of the victims.” If these people were truly worried about the injustice served to the victims, they would target the people who were much more responsible in the matter, and it begins at Corbett.
I also find it ironic that people who support Paterno are considered child rape enablers, yet people who support Corbett are not. It is undeniable that Corbett did more to enable Sandusky than Paterno did. The same allegation that neither did enough to raise awareness about Sandusky’s actions is applicable to both men. What can only be said about Corbett is that he awarded $2 million to Sandusky’s charity while being fully aware of the allegations. Somehow that is less reprehensible than Paterno not following up even though we have no idea what his final understanding of the incident was.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for clarifying
Really, it was dumb of me to even go down that road since it is a pretty minor point of semantics, so sorry. Man, maybe M1EK is rubbing off on me.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
No problem.
This is the type of discussion that leads to new understandings and new information. And believe me, I am very prone to err. That’s part of why I participate in these conversations, because it helps me learn where I’m making mistakes. I use it as a means to help strengthen my arguments as well as learn new things. There are so many nuanced perspectives in these conversations, and I learn a lot from all of them.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Note the civility going on here
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are misleading people here.
It’s very simple. Joe was thrown a hanging softball by a friendly pitcher and still could not bring himself to swing at it.
He didn’t say “I did follow up, a little”. He didn’t say anything that the most charitable possible interpretation could read that way. He just didn’t. Sally Jenkins told us so.
We already know this. This battle is over.
You are going to accuse me of misleading people?
I can account for every piece of information you associate with this situation. My understanding of it does not ignore any of the information, but can explain with the aid of additional facts how it could logically fit into the overall incident. You on the other hand completely ignore facts and evidence entirely if it does not support your version. And I’m the one being misleading? What claim is next, confirmation bias or that I am drinking the Paterno Kool-Aid? Apparently misleading is your claim of the day, but what will be the one tomorrow when your version of the incident is contradicted by fact and you get called out on it yet again?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Stop making simple things complicated.
If Joe followed up, he had the perfect venue to explain how he did. He did not say anything which could charitably be interpreted as following up. Sally Jenkins wrote:
Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
There is no sane interpretation of this that is consistent with “Joe followed up” as long as you mean with anybody of substance except for McQueary.
Yes there are sane interpretations:
(1) He was an 85 year old man attempting to recall events of nearly a decade before. Think about the most impactful thing that happened to you 10 years ago and how complete your recall was. Memories fade with the passing of a decade.
(2) He was undergoing chemo therapy which clearly taxed him physically and could have also impacted his ability to recall.
Is the interview you keep referencing as credible as Curley’s testimony? Folks can decide, but it is not as clear cut as you make it.
by dontcallmescooter on Feb 6, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, there aren't
The interview was set up to tell Joe’s story, to make his best possible case.
The rest of the world saw it and said “so, that’s that. He didn’t do shit.”
The rest of the world did not say that
At least not in my experience. And my experience is not limited to BSD and people inside the “cult”.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've been involved in a number of cults, both as a leader and a follower.
You have more fun as a follower. But you make more money as a leader.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 6, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess that makes me a follower
because I haven’t seen one penny
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
He was dying.
I said as much at the time. It was obvious that he was dying, and soon.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Again, this all rests on the definition of "following up".
And I love how M1EK goes from saying he didn’t follow up to “he didn’t follow up with anybody of substance except for McQueary”.
And again, this is all contingent on the fact that Joe should have had a compelling reason to follow up. I have yet to see one produced by M1EK. Seeing Sandusky does not count as a compelling reason unless Joe knew that his presence was putting people in danger. He didn’t, so he had no reason to be compelled to follow up.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not interested in this argument
I just wanted to note how awesome the metaphor “thrown a hanging softball by a friendly pitcher” sounds. It’s like a Japanese video game editor tried to translate more mainstream metaphors and ended up with a sort of “all your base are belong to us” type result.
And to be clear, I’m not intending this as an attack, I’ve screwed up things I was trying to say much worse. I’m trying to laugh with, not at. It’s funny.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
PERSONAL ATTACK!
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
OK.
It’s like at the home-run derby when the dude’s DAD is pitching. If you can’t even swing at that pitch? Really?
I'm feeling frisky today
Paterno was made aware of enough to require him to ask, when he saw Sandusky around for years afterwards, and knew he was still hanging out with kids at his charity,
That is your opinion, and it is a valid one. But it isn’t the only opinion. Joe reported the 2002 incident to people he trusted and that he felt were equipped to handle it properly, since he himself did not feel that he knew how to do so. I think it is reasonable that, given his limited understanding of the incident and having seen nothing come of it, Joe felt that Sandusky must not have posed a threat.
"hey, whatever happened with that investigation"
I have seen others on BSD say that Curley did inform Joe, at least in part, of what happened with the investigation. I don’t know if that is true. If it is, then I think it is reasonable that, having trusted Curley and Schultz, Joe was satisfied that they handled it properly.
of somebody. Anybody.
We know that Joe followed up with McQueary. We don’t know the details of what Joe asked him, but McQueary indicated that he was alright with how things played out.
This is twisted by people on your side into me supposedly claiming he should have gone vigilante. Nonsense. He should have asked a few questions.
Yes, some people have taken your position to that extreme. But there is sworn testimony by McQueary that Joe did ask questions. It is your omission of these sorts of facts that get a lot of people riled up.
I don’t have a problem with you thinking that Joe should have done more than he did. I myself will readily admit that he did not take the best possible course of action in 2002. What I think upsets most people here is that 1) you are so absolute in your statements, as if there is no gray area in any of this, and 2) that you have a habit of characterizing anyone that disagrees with you in the most extreme manner possible. You are free to do those things if you choose, but don’t be surprised when you keep getting the same reactions you have been getting for months. Maybe you aren’t surprised and you just enjoy doing this, or you feel like you have a responsibility to do it. That’s fine. But it wore thin a long time ago, and really doesn’t seem constructive to me.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
when he saw Sandusky around for years afterwards
Where do you suppose he saw him? Because his office wasn’t in the Lasch Building, it was in Holuba Hall. And they re-assigned the office to somebody else a year or two prior to the Grand Jury because he rarely used it.
That testimony starts at page 192 if you care to read it.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Don't be ridiculous
Sandusky was regularly working out at football facilities. There is zero chance that Paterno did not, in the 9 years between 2002 and 2001, see him.
So what?
Why does it matter if Joe saw Sandusky afterwards on campus? As long as Sandusky didnt have any children with him, AND Joe knows that what the punishment was, why does it matter.
Now you called my post dumb further down because of the Wonder Twins reference, but by stating above that just because Joe saw Sandusky on campus, he should have done something about it. I admit my reference was to the extreme to prove a point, that what your claiming you are not requiring from Paterno is exactly what you are requiring of Paterno.
He believes that the act of Paterno seeing Sandusky on campus should have led to additional follow up.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
I thought the Wonder Twins reference was excellent
Joe doesn’t turn into a T-rex, or a ninja, or grizzly bear. He turns into a block of ice! Not even an anvil or boulder, but a block of ice! Dropped by a pterodactyl. I laughed out loud at the thought of that.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Here's how it would have had to go
Form of… a guy who is willing to ask “whatever happened with that kid and Sandusky”.
Instead, it went like this:
Shape of… a block of ice that never bothered to care enough to ask.
Except for the times he asked McQuery.
Stop advocating and just write things that are true.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
His point isn't to make true statements.
It’s to put you in a position where you are left being defensive instead of offensive. If M1EK would actually answer the posts that are made with an offensive effort to poke holes in his arguments, his house of straw would get blown away very quickly.
Instead, he makes claims that are not logically true and are not supported by evidence, but force you to defend his assertions with logical assumptions in the absence of facts. He will then claim that your argument is based on assumptions and claim you are wrong despite the fact that his own argument is based entirely on assumptions and is completely contradicted at some points by actual facts. It is when you get to a point where you have an absolute fact that he stops replying (which is why I’m doubting you’ll get a response as it is absolutely true that Paterno followed up with McQueary per McQueary’s testimony (a person who M1EK considers credible).
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
For the love of the Almighty, in regards to M1EK
There is a government lab somewhere and one of the scientists is telling another scientist…
“Man, the Artificial Intelligence on that one went horribly wrong”
by BRJ75 on Feb 6, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
It's software
It is both everywhere and nowhere.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Stop being a jerk.
If you want to be treated differently than the chattering jackasses below, make more of an effort.
I have distinguished follow-up with McQueary by pointing out that McQueary, being the lowest of all possible subordinates, had many logical reasons to say he was OK with the situation even when he wasn’t.
That is not remotely sufficient to say Paterno followed up; nor did Paterno himself view it that way; nor did Jenkins herself. He knew he didn’t follow up in the way that matters.
Yes. I asked him point blank, “Why didn’t you follow up?” Paterno satisfied the law when he reported to athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz, but he satisfied very few other people, including himself, when he never followed up. He did follow up with McQueary on a number of occasions, according to McQueary’s testimony. But he never took it up with Schultz or Curley again. I asked, “What SHOULD you have done?” He replied that he should have called Curley and Schultz and said, “Where are we with this boy, and where are we with this coach?” I then asked, “Why didn’t you do that?” Which is when he lapsed into the discussion of discomfort with the topic, his inexperience with it, and his reluctance to be seen as if he was interfering with university procedures on Sandusky’s behalf.
I'm going to go out on a limb here
And say that this comment just got this thread closed.
the chattering jackasses below
Because I’m flagging it.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Stop saying things that are demonstrably false.
Add the word “sufficiently” to the end of your statement “Joe Paterno didn’t follow up” and it goes from “false statement” to opinion.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I literally read this and simply chuckled.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
jtot is a wise man
you should take his advice.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Feb 6, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What is jesse. supposed to grow?
Some tomatoes? Or some carrots? It’s a little cold outside to be growing crops right now.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
by jman07 on Feb 6, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess that depends on the climate
And area of the country. I reckon the peach trees are startin to come in right bout now. Should be some good eatin in a spat
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
I've been able put some of my plants outside the past few days.
My Rosemary seems to like it a bit chillier than indoor temperature.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
A pair of rosemary sprigs isn't going to go very far.
Oh wait – he said ‘some’, not ‘a pair’. My bad.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
Grow some.
Seriously. It takes a lot more guts to admit that your hero fucked up than to persist in this blind worship, or even worse in your case, pedantry.
I've said more than my peace on this issue.
I’ll put my dealing child abuse credentials up against yours any day of the week.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
WOOHOOO
Another I hate molestors more than you debate. I need to get my moral outrage up to a sufficient level.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
That was not my intention.
It’s just that I think that people who know me in the real world would disagree with that last statement.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
Sorry jesse.
I didn’t mean that to seem like it was directed at you. That was his intent though, to show how much more he is against pederasts than we are.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Pederasts are people too.
There – I said it.
They deserve the same due process as anyone.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
This is true.
And people should perform some basic minimum of care to try to make sure that somebody else doesn’t drop the ball when the safety of kids is concerned, too.
You guys think that, I think, except that in this case the guy who didn’t do that minimum of care was your hero.
It's not about guts
If jesse. believed that to be the truth, I think he’d “admit” that. I’ve seen him take unpopular stances before, and even if I disagreed, I’d have to admit that he logically supported his positions.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
by OctaShields on Feb 6, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stop bringing logic into a M1EK debate.
It’s unfair to get involved in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
We stopped expecting serious answers weeks ago.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 6, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Where does "douchebag"
fall in the cultist to asshole “is an insult ok?” spectrum?
I would love to see a response from Chris on this
Since, you know, when anyone else calls a duck a duck, he get the condescending uncle treatment. Somehow I doubt that M1EK will warrant the same.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
I eagerly await it.
Because the current behavior let a comment stand that said those who disagree about Paterno should dine on a Glock, among other things.
Of course none of you cared about that; many of you even recommended it.
After that was left stand with no comment, I knew where I stood.
I was going to go with a bucket of water
since thats what the one always turned into most, but I thought that a block of ice would do the most damages to Sandusky.
A depleted uranium tipped warhead would probably have also done the trick
But then we’d have to deal with Greenpeace instead of ESPN
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Your right, that would have done the trick
But since Zan could only change into a form of water….doink……block of ice
Yeah, I'll admit that I'm not a Wonder Twins afficianado
Could he have changed into heavy water, separated and isolated the deuterium, and used it form a fusion bomb?
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Good question, I have no idea
My Wonder Twins expertise only goes as far as watching Super Friends on Saturday mornings when I was a kid.
Here's a little-known fact about nuclear weapons -
most weapons that have ever been put into production (as opposed to demonstrators like Tsar Bomba) actually get most of their explosive power from fission, even if they’re ‘fusion’ weapons. The fusion components mainly provide heat and neutrons that are needed to fully utilize the fissionable material in the bomb.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
Interesting
I had thought that fusion bombs used a relatively modest fission explosion to provide the heat and pressure needed for a more power fusion explosion.
Nuclear Lion, how could you let me live in this kind of ignorance?
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
You're half right.
That’s what Tsar Bomba was – basically just a fusion bomb with a fission primer. The explosion could have been about twice as big (and infinitely ‘dirtier’) if the part of the bomb that was intended to compress the fusion portion had been made out of natural uranium instead of lead.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
I learn something new every day
Thanks
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
I'm stunned by your reaction.
Shocked, relevant testimony contradicts something you’ve said hundreds of times without any supporting evidence, and I’m being ridiculous.
You infer that Paterno saw him all of the time. Not that he’d seem him once or twice in 9 years. Truth is, you have no idea how often he saw Sandusky, nor do I. But the relevant information available suggests that it was probably pretty rare that Paterno saw Sandusky at the Lasch Building. Seeing as their offices were in totally different places, they weren’t friends, and it’s totally possible (if not likely) that Sandusky himself might have been actively avoiding seeing him at the facilities.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are reeeeeeeeeeeally stretching.
1. I never said anything about where Sandusky’s office was.
2. I never said where Paterno’s office was.
3. I said that he saw Sandusky around campus “for years afterwards”. I did not say “all the time”.
It is absolutely the case that if I were in Paterno’s shoes, and I saw the guy back on campus even one time, I would ask what happened with that investigation. Even one time would be enough.
It’s absolutely also the case that if I knew the guy was working with a charity where he spent a lot of time with kids, and I knew this, I would ask what happened with that investigation.
The effort by so many people here to paint that eminently reasonable moral requirement for some basic followup as tantamount to demanding vigilante justice is absolutely absurd.
No I'm not
1. You thought it was in the Lasch building. You can admit it, I did too. But we were both wrong.
2. Everyone knows Paterno’s office is in the Lasch Building.
3. You imply the shit out of it. And you’ve done it ten times if you’ve done it once. I saw that in the record and I was going to post it, but I figured I would wait until you made this “he saw him argument” again. I think I had to wait 48 hours.
And again, you completely discount that Curley said he followed back around with Paterno.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
No.
I don’t care where either ones’ office was; nor did I ever care. Paterno didn’t spend all day in his office. Not relevant, not remotely relevant.
And again, I don’t care what Curley said. He is under indictment for perjury, and has many reasons to lie here.
He also didn't spend all day on a Jerry Sandusky scavenger hunt.
The proximity of their offices is relevant to whether or not there would be a chance meeting between the two. I understand that you don’t care what Curley says, but as I said in the prior thread there is no evidence to the contrary. So it is what it is.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
6 years to 2008
9 years to 2011.
Working out at the football facilities. Regularly.
Most of us ran across Joe at least once during our four years on campus (I ran across him on campus probably ten times in my years there, not counting in my grandparents’ neighborhood), and most of us didn’t spend any time at Lasch or Holuba Hall. Give me a fucking break with this.
If you're using anecdotal evidence
I was a student on campus for 2.5 years and a resident of State College for another 10—and never ran into either one of them.
Just saying…
by psu87intn on Feb 6, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
When you say he saw him "for years afterwards"
you imply that it was frequently.
Let’s use an example. If you ask someone about a restaurant, and they say, “I’ve been going there for years,” what does that imply to you? If you go, have a bad experience and go back and say it was bad. and ask why they like it so much and they say “I’ve only been three times in nine years, it’s possible it’s not the same.”
The reason you would be justifiably upset with the recommendations is because the “for years” statement implies a certain amount of frequency. You wouldn’t say, “oh, ok, well you are technically correct so don’t worry about it.”
"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace
OK
It is absolutely the case that if I were in Paterno’s shoes, and I saw the guy back on campus even one time, I would ask what happened with that investigation. Even one time would be enough.
It’s absolutely also the case that if I knew the guy was working with a charity where he spent a lot of time with kids, and I knew this, I would ask what happened with that investigation.
Assuming that you actually would have done those things, I will admit that you would have handled this better than Joe Paterno. Is that what you have wanted to hear? I’m honestly asking.
However, I will not judge Joe Paterno’s morality based upon what someone who never actually was in a similar situation claims they would have done 10 years after the fact and with the benefit of all the knowledge we have now. I don’t care if it is 1 million someones making that claim. I base my opinion of Joe Paterno in this particular case on what I think is reasonable.
Nothing I have heard from you or anyone else has led me to believe that Joe acted in a malevolent way. Could he have done better? Sure. He made a mistake. But I won’t condemn the man for it. And that isn’t because I am a cultist, or a wagon circler, or because I am trying to canonize him. It is because I try to look at the facts objectively and then I come to my own opinion.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
What would Joe following up have accomplished?
It’s meant as a rhetorical question, unless someone has an actual answer, and it’s meant more in response to M1EK than your post.
First, in order to get to the point of claiming Joe should have followed up, you have to base it on the assumption that he had a reason to. If I followed up every time I saw someone around who was accused of doing something wrong, people would think I was a conspiracy freak. It’s entirely understandable that Joe would not feel a need to follow up if he felt the outcome of the investigation was acceptable.
Secondly, who should he have followed up to? If he follows up with a police officer, it’s entirely likely that that officer would have inquired about the incident to Schultz, who would have had a solid explanation for what was found and why. At that point, the only thing that could really happen would be that that information got passed back to Paterno so that he could claim he “followed up”.
Since there was really no one internally who Paterno could have followed up with to get additional results, the only option would have been to go outside of university and contact the State Police (or another outside entity that would have jurisdiction in University Park (ex. not the State College PD). Again, we are lacking any information that would justify him taking such an action. We don’t even know what he was told by Curley regarding the outcome of the investigation to warrant determining a need for additional action being taken. Until I see what Paterno was told regarding the investigation, this is a pointless argument to have as there’s no information to support this hypothetical. It’s merely to distract people from the fact that M1EK’s perspective is lacking foundation and is contradicted by actual fact.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Moved the goalpoasts?!
couldn’t resist
Sandwich is the best
Bread use aside from making
Russians stand in line
No.
What I want to hear is that Joe Paterno didn’t do what he should have done, and as a result, kids between 2002-2008 (maybe even 2008-2011) stood a non-trivially higher chance of being molested by Jerry Sandusky.
And this goes for everyone: if you don’t agree with the above, you need to make a far better case than you have made so far.
And all everybody here wants you to do...
is add the words “in retrospect”.
...may we compete with fierce intensity, with the gifts that we have been given...
by jesse. on Feb 6, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
As has been noted: Joe said that with the benefit of hindsight, he wishes he had done more. Do you win now?
by dontcallmescooter on Feb 6, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
No.
Stop with this gutless shit about hindsight.
It is obvious to anybody with a conscience that you ask “what happened”. Not in hindsight. Not in fucking hindsight. Not in retrospect.
Rec this if you don't have a conscience
I’d like to see how depraved we all are here.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What then if not hindsight?
Morbid curiosity?
Genuine fascination?
Not everybody wants to know the details of child molestation.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
So what you're saying is you don't want people to see the err of Paterno's ways.
You want them to condemn and vilify him to accomplish nothing other than condemnation and vilification? What does that accomplish exactly? It sure as hell isn’t going to stop kids from getting abused, which I think is the #1 priority here.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
First
it means you stop being an apologist.
Second, it means you stop making our school look like Jonestown victims.
Third, it means you reduce the cover for people to do (or not do) what allowed Sandusky to get away with this for so long.
I haven't once made claims of zero responsibility.
Let’s hypothetically say that you win and everybody here agrees with your perspective. What is that accomplishing? We are already in agreement that child rape is wrong and that we should do everything to prevent it. Winning an argument is a pedantic victory in relation to actually stopping child rape. What is the goal? Whether I believe that in that situation, Paterno did everything he reasonably should have, it has no impact on helping victims of child abuse or preventing it in the future. The events that have unfolded have served as notice that in allegations of child abuse, you must err on the side of caution. How does people’s perceptions of Paterno impact that?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's the thing
I have no incentive to answer your questions, because you’re being a snide jerkoff in the side thread. I already told you this, and you kept it up.
So, you get no answer. Or, rather, you get what you give.
I have to laugh, because he always goes back to his motivation
Second, it means you stop making our school look like Jonestown victims.
It always goes back to how it appears to the outside world for him. Like, because we have the nerve to stand up for Joe Paterno, the man, (or being an apologist, like he claims, always) some how has negative consequences for him.
Obviously he hasnt realized that people are willing to stand up for Joe, instead of being a coward and turning tail and falling in line with the rest of misinformed idiots.
The misinformed idiots
are the ones who think Joe did everything he should have done; or that Schultz was “the cops”; or that McQueary couldn’t have seen anything because of the layout of the locker room; […]
Nothing Smerconish said in his piece is remotely misinformed – it’s all consistent with the testimony, both under oath and to Jenkins.
Right.
In that testimony, he very painstakingly evaluated every facet of a, frankly, unfair question that is unlikely to be admitted in court were it not a GJ proceeding.
do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge, or any other fashion
From that, he said he had not heard anything. However, he left open the possibility that he could have heard some conversation of a rumor going on in his presence and not retained that memory. Not groundbreaking, and not nearly enough evidence for a responsible jounralist to imply to the reader that he knew about the 1998 investigation, in my opinion.
If someone asked you if you had ever heard something in your normal life, you would stop, search your memory and if it wasn’t there, you would say “no”. Now, change the circumstances to many days of a lawyer or lawyers preparing you and instructing you to only answer questions you are certain of. Now spend the time the lawyers aren’t there questioning how certain you are on the scale of certainty. Trust me, you will start to question things you would otherwise know to be true.
Add into all of that spending time around a building and locker room filled with males age 18-22. Think about how many rumors you must hear, and how much credibility you must give them. Now answer the question, did you ever hear a rumor about [insert anyone that has been around this same group]? He answered the question, that he did not remember having heard that rumor. The fact that he took such care to answer every part of the question suggests to me that that was an honest answer. You would have probably elicited the same response from the question, “Did you ever hear a rumor that one of your players had sex with Dr. Tripony.” No, but it is entirely possible it was overheard and filed in the “useless nonsence” part of your brain, never to be retained as a memory.
Nonstory.
"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace
by PSUinBOSSton on Feb 6, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Sigh. I'm so tired of this non-stop focus on Paterno.
Joe Paterno is not the sole reason why children allegedly may have been abused. He’s also not the one who committed these crimes, nor is he the one who eye-witnessed any crimes.
Our society is a complete dump of human waste if all we are doing is focusing on Joe still. Article after article all in the name of page hits, but I don’t hear one iota of prevention for this issue. It’s not helping the problem, it’s diverting attention and blame where it belongs, in the judicial system. This isn’t a Penn State specific problem, it is unfortunately much more common than we believe and under-reported and mishandled due to under education on the subject and a fear of the dark side of someone.
by mleepsu08 on Feb 6, 2012 10:50 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Sigh. I'm so tired of people missing this point.
The reason there is no non-stop focus on Spanier or Curley or Schultz is that there aren’t hordes of people defending them on the internet all over the place.
To be fair
the reason there are “hordes of people defending” Joe is because there are hordes of people attacking him. It is all very circular, which is why it hasn’t stopped, despite very little new information coming to light. It is also why I usually don’t jump into these threads (I’m not sure why I am doing it today).
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Everyone who writes articles about Joe non-stop is missing the point.
Joe is not the center of this. That’s why people rally up to support him and in defense of him. He is stuck somewhere in the midst of this mess but he’s not the lone focal point. That minimizes what happens, and paints a very unrealistic view at the rout of what cased this in the first place. Many people who do “get the point”, who are working in this field, are mortified at the narrative focus in the media. The media and those who churn their wheels to make this all about Joe, are missing the point entirely.
by mleepsu08 on Feb 6, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The reason there is no non-stop focus on Spanier or Curley or Schultz
is because few people outside of Penn State knew who they were. Joe Paterno was the only well known figure in this story, and that’s why he’s the focus. Otherwise, few would care about it, and that doesn’t sell many newspapers does it
We Are because You Were
Black Shoe Diaries
Seriously, just ignore this guy.
Run.
by Bob Sacamano on Feb 6, 2012 11:17 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
I normally do
But it’s a Monday and I’m feeling a little self-destructive. And you know what Tyler Durden says about self-destruction…
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I am. I just had to ask a question that won't get an answer
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
I only want to say this once...
and this seems like as good a place as any to say it.
I think that the reason why those of us ‘inside the circle’ fixate on stories concerning Joe and his level of involvement is that we have seen what can happen to a person in today’s world when a story gets out of hand. A lot of us were saying back on that first weekend in November that we had no information that would sway our preexisting notions of who Joe was. We were saying (very rightly so) that the Grand Jury presentment did not contain the end-all be-all version of events. We were saying that anyone who was calling for Joe’s immediate firing was operating on assumption rather than fact.
Since then I have read countless articles and comments that are based on the paradigm of Joe being willfully blind, if not complicit in a conspiracy, for the sake of protecting his program. These items are typically peppered with inferences (if not outright statements) that Joe and Sandusky were friends, that Joe was effectively in charge of the entire University, that Police Services was not a ‘real’ police force, or any of a number of other red flags that indicate that the author’s intentions are at best sloppy and at worst libelous. These pieces have informed the majority opinion, as any objections are conveniently shouted down with claims that the objector does not care about children, or that no one could defend Joe if they stopped to consider what he would have done if it had been his grandson in the shower with Sandusky. The indelible image out of State College from the week after the presentment was released is the students protesting against – what is in the minds of the great majority of viewers – ‘just the school’s football coach’.
Those students understood, just as many of the regulars on BSD understand, that Joe was much more than just a football coach. I’m not going to list his accomplishments beyond the football field, since anyone who is going to give a damn already knows who Joe was and what he did. The reason why those kids took to the street on November ninth, and the reason some of us will always continue to defend Joe, is that if a man of his stature can be taken down by speculation and lies, then what chance does any of us have?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 6, 2012 11:34 AM EST reply actions 9 recs
This is what really gets me
So much of the narrative is that Paterno and the administration were covering up or willfully ignoring Sandusky in order to protect the football program and the money that it brings in. I have not seen any evidence of that. I am not sure why so many people draw that conclusion.
by dontcallmescooter on Feb 6, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Most people have had drilled into their collective heads
That at these Large Schools, like Penn State, that their football programs and the money generated by those programs are all thats important.
Thank you, ESPN.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 6, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think that is part of it
I think the deeper reason is that if you assume that the Joe Paternos, Tim Curleys , Gary Schultzs and Graham Spaniers of the world are evil, then you can reasonably believe that you really would have “done more”. If, however, you admit the possibility that these are all good people that simply made a series mistakes, then it means that you too could have made the same mistakes, and probably would have. That isn’t a reality most people want to accept.
That is just my armchair psychologist’s opinion.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I'm in complete agreement with you.
When you present the situation to someone and ask what they would have done, they will never give you an answer that would result in the possibility of future molestation. No matter what the situation is, they will always claim they would have escalated it, as if they would have known Sandusky was guilty immediately. They fail to see this perspective is only applicable with the benefit of hindsight. Given a situation where there was no objective evidence that a crime was actually committed, you can not have that perspective.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Its tough to fathom
That we are all capable of making innocent mistakes with unimaginable rammifications. People don’t want to accept that equal and opposite reactions apply only to physics.
Its tough to comprehend, but some incredibly serious mistakes have had little to no consequences, and seemingly innocent ones have cost lives.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Did you get drawn into the discussion of Moral Luck in the other thread?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
I didn't
I’ve been on travel for the better part of the past month, so I’ve missed a lot.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
You need to look it up.
…and get some background on the concept, if you don’t have it already.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
Can you give me a quick link?
Or is the title of the post ‘Moral Luck’?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Thanks
I’ll have to take a look at this later, I’ve gotta leave work and go to class
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Its sad really
I have conversations with fellow college football fans, and simply cannot come to an agreement about what college football is and what it should be. Too many ‘fans’ are only fans because it gives them something to do on Saturdays. They don’t have any other emotional investment in it. They don’t see it like I do: a reason to either go back to Happy Valley or simply spend Saturdays with my large extended family. They don’t see it as a bunch of kids getting the chance to continue doing what they love. They miss the innocence of it because a few colleges have allowed a few people to corrupt college football.
College football isn’t the NFL. It isn’t meant as pure entertainment. Unfortunately, ESPN treats it that way. Since they have a monopoly on the sport, those casual fans only see it as entertainment. Hell, even the die-hard fans in certain parts of the country see it as pure entertainment. And it makes me sad because the true beauty of the sport is lost in its commercialization. Which leads to innacurate characterizations of the game. And if nothing is done, will forever ruin the game.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
by psuphysicist on Feb 6, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
So many people draw that conclusion...
IMO, thanks to the statements of Kelly and Noonan in their press conference following the announcement of the charges (cannot find a link). Their story in that press conference laid the groundwork necessary for the vilification of PSU and specifically the witch hunt that extended beyond those that had been charged.
I believe they made these statements because they blindly trusted Mike McQueary’s version of events, believed that people at PSU had to have conspired to cover this up (as evidenced by their “lying” under oath*), and all they needed was the evidence to prove it. They put out these statements in the hope that it would get more people to come forward against PSU and against Sandusky to try to broaden who they could legally charge, including (particularly) Graham Spanier who would be an obvious target of any intentional cover-up investigation.
I believe they misjudged how big of a story this would become (destroying the reputation of people who are innocent of any crime) and I believe they never accomplished what they set out to do because their assumption of an intentional cover-up is off the mark.
No more evidence has come out against Penn State or any of its employees in the months that have now gone by since Sandusky was arrested. The longer this goes, the more sure I am that McQueary just told a bare-bones story that he thought would be enough to get an investigation launched without jeopardizing his position with the team or rocking the boat too much. When that attempt failed, rather than insist more action be taken, he accepted the action that Curley/Schultz took. And when Curley/Schultz saw his acceptance of their conclusion and Spanier accepted their conclusion based on a bare-bones story translated to him through Curley/Schultz, everyone (including Joe) assumed the situation had been handled appropriately. The only person who could have KNOWN that the situation was not handled well enough is the eyewitness.
Let’s be frank. If Sandusky’s behavior was internalized (at the time) by the administration as inappropriate (but not criminal) “horsing around,” then their handling of the situation is really reasonable. Bar Sandusky from bringing kids on campus, minimizing risks to the University and future possibilities for misunderstandings, and alert the Second Mile, minimizing risks for their children by allowing them to increase their vigilance of Sandusky. In the absence of a clear crime, their reaction actually makes very good sense. With what we now know, that reaction was inadequate. With what they may have known at the time from a shaky story from McQueary (and, for Schultz, a failed 1998 investigation), it’s really not so crazy.
*The only way to conclude that Curley/Schultz are lying is by believing McQueary’s version of events. There is no corroboration. There are no notes. There are no tape recordings. There is the word of one man against the word of 2. Also, although there is some motive to cover this up by PSU administration, there isn’t a shred of evidence that actually happened (e.g., MM’s testimony that nobody asked him not to talk about what happened).
by BNittsDeMilo on Feb 6, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I think you are right, and I think it is telling that so few additional victims have come forward. Part of the narrative has been that there may be dozens of victims, but I am surprised that none prior to 1998 have been identified. It strikes me as odd.
by dontcallmescooter on Feb 6, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think that is correct
In the GJ presentment there are descriptions of incidents going back as far as (I think) 1994. And I believe that there was testimony from actual victims in that case. 1998 was the first incident that was brought to the attention of PSU and the police (as far as we know).
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Absolutely this.
We know that based on McQueary’s testimony, he never used any words that would indicate rape when relaying the incident to Paterno, Curley and Schultz. Further, sexual assault is completely uncorroborated based on the information that we have. Absent a victim (which is the case), there is nothing to support that a child was actually assaulted. The only assertion that is supported is that there was an opportunity for sexual assault to occur.
Assuming that this is the conclusion that was reached by Schultz and Curley, it seems appropriate that they banned Sandusky from bringing children on campus. Unless McQueary knew of something in addition to what he claims to have told Schultz and Curley, I don’t see why he would not be satisfied with the outcome. It’s not like there was enough evidence here to convict Sandusky of anything, and there really isn’t even enough to bring charges on the merit of this incident alone. It is only with the inclusion of all the other allegations that this situation carries any weight (and likely will not result in a conviction on these individual charges).
While additional action on the part of Schultz and Curley is warranted to bring the incident to the attention of CYS and the Second Mile, that is not a responsibility that falls on Paterno if they do not do so. There is no indication that children were in actual danger, and while the prudent thing to do would be to raise awareness of the issue, there is definitely nothing to confirm this was a necessary action.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, aurabass
What McQueary told Paterno was sufficient for Paterno to understand that something sexual took place.
This means children really were in actual danger. Period.
As long as he told Curley and Schultz what he told Paterno, Curley and Schultz’s banning of Sandusky from campus was not sufficient.
This was all supported by the GJ testimony, which made the GJ find McQueary (and Paterno) more credible than Curley and Schultz. The presentment, and all the talk about whether rape occurred or not, is irrelevant to this – as long as “something sexual occurred”, we’re already well past the line where children were in actual danger and the real cops should have been called, and Paterno should have followed up.
You are missing a MAJOR component in your timeline.
The component you are missing is the conclusion of the investigation. We know what the initial allegations are, but we do not know what the final conclusion was. You can not base judgment of actions based on initial allegations. There has been absolutely nothing produced to support your assertion that:
This means children really were in actual danger
other than McQueary’s initial allegations. Stop acting like everyone just heard McQueary’s allegations and immediately said “case closed, ban Sandusky from bringing kids onto campus.”
If someone accuses you of a crime, would you want everyone that was ever aware of those allegations to judge you based entirely on that? The answer is absolutely not. You would want them to understand the basis for the allegations and the actual events.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Your argument misses the actual facts.
It’s like you’re fighting water with a tennis racket.
Paterno himself said he never followed up, son.
Ooohhh - "son".
You know you’re on solid rhetorical ground when you call the other side “son”.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
by leeharvey418 on Feb 6, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Please tell me the facts.
I’m asking in earnest. What facts were there that children were in actual danger AFTER Paterno set up the meeting for McQueary to talk to Schultz and Curley? Clearly there were indications that a child might be in danger based on the allegations, however there really has been nothing to support beyond the initial allegations by McQueary that supports an opportunity that a child was actually in danger. If there is proof that Paterno knew a child was still in danger after the investigation and he did nothing, that will honestly change a lot of people’s opinions on the matter.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
No.
Stop being a jerk in the side threads, and maybe. But you don’t get to have it both ways anymore.
You have completely ignored
his interview with Sally Jenkins, and her follow-up, where he admitted he did not ever ask what happened with that kid and Sandusky.
And this wasn’t a court where he was cross-examined. He was given the best possible venue in which to make his best possible case, and the best he came up with was the nonsense about not understanding “rape, and a man”, and him not wanting to follow up because he didn’t want to prejudice the investigation.
The rest of the world saw that interview and had their guesses (which is all they were, including mine) confirmed. Joe got it off his desk and then never thought about it again.
He's not ignoring it, and neither are most people.
Paterno’s statements were ambiguous and he was under medical treatment. When logically reconciling his statements with the testimonies of MM and Curley, the outcome is that he didn’t follow up additionally with Curley or Schultz after being informed of the outcome of their investigation. There is nothing to support that he would have felt the urge to do so, and that is an assumption you are making. If a person who is in charge of investigating an incident comes to me, a person who was not a witness to the event and only heard a general description of the event, and explains to me what they found and the actions they are taking, I will not feel compelled to escalate the issue absent not being satisfied with the explanation. We have no idea what the explanation was that was given to Paterno, and therefore can not determine if he should have been satisfied or not. It is entirely plausible that Curley told Joe they looked into it, found that it wasn’t sexual but just horseplay, and that they weren’t allowing Sandusky to bring kids on campus anymore. If the person investigating the allegations determines it’s not sexual, why would Paterno feel compelled to contradict him. You’re making it seem like Paterno should have acted with the mentality you display here, that he should have considered something unsubstantiated the truth and then just assumed everyone that didn’t agree with him was wrong.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the outcome is that he didn’t follow up additionally with Curley or Schultz after being informed of the outcome of their investigation
This is a gigantic assumption on y’all’s part.
1. Curley is under indictment for perjury. Nothing he says is credible.
2. McQueary and Paterno supposedly had a conversation where Paterno asked him if he was OK with what happened. Again, I can think of a lot of ways in which McQueary would feel pressured to say “Yes” even if he was not OK with it.
Does anybody today feel that McQueary was OK with how it was handled? Anyone?
This is why the rest of the world thinks our fanbase are cultists. That argument you just made has issues a five-year-old could find.
So you are countering some of the few facts we have with speculation
and you think that’s a stronger argument than fact?
1. I don’t think you understand that just because you are charged with something, it doesn’t mean you are guilty. While it is a basis for emphasizing caution, it does not mean you need to discount it entirely. A lot of Curley’s claims have been proven true. He claims he wasn’t told of rape or sodomy, McQueary verified that. However, Curley’s claims are at odds with the Grand Jury Presentment, which is the least credible based on the known facts of all accounts and also contradict McQueary’s accounts (who you consider credible).
2. How is it fair to place the burden of knowing how McQueary felt on Paterno? If you look at Paterno’s understanding of the situation, you are missing something to support a motive for him to remain skeptical. There is nothing to support that Paterno should NOT have believed McQueary was being genuine with his answer.
Personally, I do think that at the time, McQueary was OK with how it was handled. There is absolutely nothing to support that he wasn’t. It is only in 2008, when the grand jury investigation started and word might’ve started getting around that Sandusky was accused of molesting several children that McQueary felt it wasn’t handled appropriately. I believe that McQueary’s own father, who was aware of all of the details, stated at the perjury hearing that the actions taken by Schultz and Curley were acceptable at the time. Again, you’re making an assumption that does not seem like a logical perspective (unless you believe that a logical perspective is absolute skepticism and paranoia) and discounting any contradictory explanations that do not contain absolute fact, yet your perspective is equally devoid of fact and does not fit a logical construct of the situation.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Does anybody today feel that McQueary was OK with how it was handled? Anyone?
Does anybody today feel today that McQueary’s actions prior to being contacted by police and asked to testify at the GJ show that he wasn’t OK with how it was handled? Anyone?
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I believe (my opinion) that there must have been some evidence that McQueary was not OK with the results, or else the police would not have contacted him. According to the NYT (I believe) it was a blog post, but I am not sure. If he was posting something about it, he was probably not satisfied with the actions that were taken.
by dontcallmescooter on Feb 6, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
There's a difference between satisfied and happy.
Was McQueary satisfied that the University had done everything it could legally do to investigate the matter and punish Sandusky? Apparently so.
Was he happy with the scope of that investigation and punishment? Most rightly not.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
I agree that the blog post shows that he was not comfortable with the outcome.
I don’t think you can necessarily determine his satisfaction of it as you can be satisfied logically yet still be uncomfortable. I think the biggest question regarding his blog post is what led to him posting it? Was it in a vacuum where he was completely unaware of the other allegations that were surfacing, which would indicate that he was never really comfortable with it, or was it produced due to him learning about additional allegations? I think that it’s entirely possible McQueary was satisfied at the time with the actions taken, and it was only after finding out about additional allegations that he became uncomfortable with the outcome.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Regardless of how satisfied McQueary truly was with PSU's actions in 2002
we don’t know of any actions prior to the blog post that would indicate to somebody else that he was unsatisfied. M1EK is correct when he states that there are reasons McQueary “would feel pressured to say ‘Yes’ even if he was not OK with it.” However, the simplest explanation for saying “Yes” is that McQueary truly was satisfied in 2002. Today, it seems like that was not the case, but I don’t know how Joe Paterno or anyone else was supposed to know that in 2002 absent some action on the part of McQueary to the contrary.
From what I recall (correct me if I’m wrong) the blog post was fairly recent (i.e., not long before the start of the 4th and final GJ investigation). That is a long time to stay silent. Furthermore, a blog post is hardly the best way to kick start an investigation years after the fact.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
A good manager
knows when a subordinate, especially a junior one, is likely to tell him or her what they want to hear – and will either attempt to put that subordinate in a position where they cannot possibly feel they will be punished in any way for telling the truth, or, and this is really important: go ask somebody else.
I work in direct contact with my superior every day
and they have the power to pretty much make or break my career. Because I have a good relationship with them, I feel comfortable being honest. I have also been in a position to have some level of authority over others, and never once have I felt that they could not come to me with their honest opinion. The actions of those people would seem to back this up. Now maybe I’m not a good manager, but I could find plenty of people would say otherwise.
Furthermore, there is 60 years worth of evidence that Joe Paterno was not just a good manager, but a great one, and yet he did not do what you suggest. Could it be that things are not as clear cut as you make them out to be?
I agree with you that in a perfect world, everyone always knows exactly what they should do in every situation, and then they either do it (in which case they did well) or they don’t do it (in which case they did poorly).
In the real world, good, well meaning people trying to do the best they can in difficult situations make mistakes. To me, it seems like the standard you hold people to (and that you claim you yourself would have acted by) is disconnected from reality.
Now, I will admit, right here and right now, that I might be holding people to too low of a standard. Will you admit the possibility that you are holding people to too high of a standard?
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Nope.
Because the only standard I am holding Joe Paterno to is that he should have asked a question or too.
That’s how ridiculous this has become. You guys are defending the guy because it was too much to expect him to ask “what happened with Sandusky and that kid”.
This is simply untrue
Because the only standard I am holding Joe Paterno to is that he should have asked a question or too.
I have seen you say on more than one occasion that he should have:
1) Known that Gary Schultz “had an obvious incentive” to cover this up
2) Known what Gary Schultz’s precise role within the University administration was
3) Counseled McQueary to go to the cops
4) Go to the cops himself when it became obvious that Tim Curley and Gary Schultz hadn’t done so
That is just off the top of my head. And in the post directly above this, you say that Joe should have done something (what, I’m not sure) to put McQueary in a position where he would have known without a doubt that he would not be punished for telling the truth (though I’m not sure how he didn’t do that when he comforted McQueary and set up the interview with Curley and Schultz).
And I am not defending Joe because I think “it was too much to expect him to ask ‘what happened with Sandusky and that kid’.” I actually agree that he could and should have done just that. I am defending him because I don’t think that his failure to do so warrants the type of scathing criticism he has received.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
by Nittany_Ryan on Feb 6, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No.
The reason he should have asked a question or two is because having blind faith in those administrators was not defensible for a variety of reasons.
We then argued about what those reasons were, which is where all that came in.
What I really wanted him to do was ask the questions, period.
Do you know what Joe's understanding of the incident was?
Without knowing what his understanding of it was, you can not claim he should have asked a question. If you are going to say in hindsight he should have asked, then I agree with you, but you have made it painfully clear that you think he should’ve done so without the need for hindsight and I can’t agree with that until I am aware of what Paterno was told regarding the investigation and the conclusion of it.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I forgot the imputed motivations to Schultz
“He gained ten years of salary.” But that isn’t buying into – or creating out of whole cloth – a conspiracy theory, right?
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
No.
It’s rebutting those who said Schultz could not possibly have had any reason to want to cover up the story. I don’t know why, or whether, he covered it up. But it’s one possible reason among several.
So, one possible reason among several (not supported by any known facts)
is NOT trading in the language of a conspiracy theorist?
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
You are either a conspiracy theorist yourself or the most skeptical, cynical person ever.
You distrust anything anyone says if it is slightly disputed by something you approve of (whether it’s supported by evidence or not). You take everything anyone has stated in this as a lie motivated by some motive even though there’s nothing to support it (unless of course it’s a statement that supports your narrative, in which case it is above reproach). And you become increasingly fanatical about it. Please correct me if this is not a fair summarization of your beliefs:
McQueary saw something sexual happening in the shower with Sandusky. He alerted Paterno and told him it was sexual assault. Paterno then contacted Schultz & Curley, and all three of them did nothing but ban Sandusky from bringing kids to campus. Paterno then followed up with McQueary who lied about being satisfied with the outcome. I’m not sure about your understanding of McQueary’s father in this situation, but I’m guessing it’s along the lines of he didn’t want to do anything to jeopardize his son’s career. From that point on, everytime Paterno saw Sandusky, he was aware that Sandusky was molesting kids and continued to do nothing about it. Is that accurate?
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Except that the rest of the world does not think that we are cultists.
You think the portion of the fanbase that doesn’t agree with you are cultists, and some other extremists I’m sure think the same. However, as someone well outside the footprint, I have both agreed and disagreed with people who have no PSU connection extensively. None of them believe my viewpoint is as offensive as you do. To the extent you allow the media to color your perspective on PSU, then for about a week or two there was talk in that direction, most of it based on a perceived giant student riot. Since then there has been a major sea change in that dialogue.
If you want to say you view us as cultists, fine. If you want to say some people view us as cultists, fine. If you want to say that minority viewing us as cultists is the most vocal, ok, but I would disagree with you based on my experience here in the Boston area. If you want to say all of the non-PSU connected world views us as cultists, then you are grossly misrepresenting reality to fit your agenda.
"Today we have experienced a great loss. This loss is incomparable to what we gained from coach Paterno." - Mike Wallace
by PSUinBOSSton on Feb 6, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If I may chime in with my own experience
Living in Montreal, I have heard very little coverage of this story in Canadian media, save in the immediate aftermath. There was also some coverage of Paterno’s death in which the scandal was mentioned. I have worn my PSU attire to work, around town, and to the gym. Not once has anyone even asked my opinion about what happened, even on the day of Paterno’s passing. The most discussion I have ever had was the Monday after Joe died. I wore khakis, a white shirt, blue tie, white socks, and black shoes to work (with the pants rolled up, of course). I had 3 people ask me why. When I told them, all 3 expressed sympathy and said that they thought that Joe was treated unfairly.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
Excellent
As are the bagels and smoked meat. It sounds cliche but it is true. I have yet to find a satisfactory pizza place, though.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
I travel all over the country (and sometimes outside of it) for work
And I wear my PSU clothing with pride wherever I go. The only conversations I have ever had with people are those expressing to me that they feel Paterno got a bad rap.
Not once has anyone even so much as rolled their eyes at me.
And the few people that have expressed anything else wanted to have a conversation. They all had questiontions, and were very willing to listen to the answers, resulting in them walking away much more informed than they started.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Grossly misrepresenting reality to fit your agenda.
I’m fairly certain this is what happens in all the arguments M1EK gets into, not just the cultist one.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
So, you?
We’re done playing nice. If you want to be a jackass off to the side here while pretending to be nice in direct responses, I’m going to notice.
Im just curious to see how long it takes M1EK to turn his derision towards SuePa
Considering he thinks Joe should have known that everybody associated with this botched it up, its easy to make the logical assumption that he is requiring Joe to keep tabs on past,current, future players/coaches, the Penn State administraton higher ups, all of Penn State faculty/students/alums, State College, Centre County, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the United States of America and the rest of humanity, basically be a super hero (even though M1EK claims thats not what he is asking).
Sooner or later it will end up “Joe must have told Sue what was going on, Why didnt she do enough?” from M1EK.
In this little make believe world of his, the only reasonable outcome should have been Joe and Sue going all Wonder Twins. Wonder Twin Powers Activate, Sue becoming a Pterodactyl and Joe becoming a block of ice and they fly over Sandusky’s house and she drops Joe on Jerry’s head while hes out mowing the lawn.
This is precisely the reductio ad absurdum
that makes you guys look so dumb.
From my comment above:
This is twisted by people on your side into me supposedly claiming he should have gone vigilante. Nonsense. He should have asked a few questions.
Asking a few questions. That’s it. And he didn’t do that.
Nothing
new here for the thousandth time. All incorrectly packaged. And with the obligatory higher moral ground statement:
Did that discharge Paterno’s legal duty? Yes. His moral duty? Absolutely not.
Smerconish, if you are picking a moral fight with one Joseph Vincent Paterno, you, my feckless writer, lose. As in, you could live ten lifetimes and not come close to the level of moral values present in JoePa on any given day in his single life.
Humanum est pati.
by Smee on Feb 6, 2012 12:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
THREADJACK!!!
I will provide free beer to any and all who do not respond any longer. If you do, no free beer for you.
And I am not responding by responding here by clearly labeling my post THREADJACK
Bent But Not Broken
by letsgopsu on Feb 6, 2012 12:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What kind of beer?
I like beer.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Also
have you tried the new Bud Light Platinum? I did last night. It tastes just like Bud Light, only with 6% alcohol. Maybe a reason to finally drink Bud Light.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
So instead of p*ss water
It’s p*ss water with more alcohol? Hmm.
Pass.
by cjapsu on Feb 6, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I disagree fundamentally
The reason Bud Light and all the 3.2 beers exist is so that you can drink many, many, many of them for long periods of time, specifically Saturdays in the fall. If I start drinking Bud Light Platinum I get all of the terrible taste of Bud Light but drunker faster. I pace myself by letting Bud Light do it for me- aka I sprint my marathons. 6% Bud Light is a recipe for disaster.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Well there is a time and place for all beers
You wouldn’t want a 6% BL for tailgate. That would be a rookie move. I’m not really sure what the time or place would be for it. I guess if you want to get drunk with less piss tasting beer, then this is for you. I’m going to stick with Miller for my tailgates.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
I am not a Miller Lite fan
I actually prefer Pabst for my tailgates.
But good beers are only appropriate for noon games, and watching at home. At least until I learn the meaning of the word ‘restraint’. So never.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Ha. True
If the end game is to consume as many as possible, then you definitely don’t want to spend it on expensive beer. That would just be a waste.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Its not that I'm trying to consume as many as possible
Its just that I love flip cup. And dizzy bat. And shotguns. Really social binge drinking, cleverly disguised as innocent games.
And then once you have enough in you, you forgot to keep count and you just keep drinking until there are no more left. Its not neccessarily the goal, but something that is bound to happen
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Have you ever tried to play
any of those “games” with something other than light beer? It is an awful situation. I had friends in college that refused to drink light beer and so we’d run out of our stock and they’d be kind enough to give us some of theirs. After 10-15 light beers, switching to Molson Canadian, Moosehead, Yuengling, etc is awful awful.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
I have
Wild Turkey dizzy bats.
I did it once and got a standing ovation. As I’m a bit of a ham, I did it again. I was pretty drunk for that game.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
To be fair
There was Ice, so it wasn’t like I drank 12 ounces of straight Wild Turkey
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Ran out of beer at a party
turned into Amaretto pong. It was like drinking syrup.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
haha
yeah me too.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Don't worry
I think most of us threw up in the toilet at some point. Or maybe the floor. Don’t remember too much. Oh freshman year.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
have you ever played 'buca pong?
then brother, you haven’t lived.
"We gon' get down. We gon' do the do. I'm going to hit these mother****ers" - Dock Ellis, May 1, 1974.
Yikes.
Although, I could likely last longer on ’buca than I could on amaretto.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
Oh boy. That's heavy lifting
I haven’t had the ol ‘buca for 5 or so years. I think I’m ok with that.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
But are we responding by responding to you?
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
You know what would help that?
Beer. That’s what.
"My father did not have a broken heart. His heart was too strong. It couldn't be broken."
- Mary Kay Paterno-Hort
I don't drink.
So how about a Root Beer or Sarsparilla?
I would like to point out that my long comment up above was directed generally at BSD readers, not at anyone in particular.
…and I further reserve the right to drop snide one-liners in this thread.
I would very much like to join the free beer party, even though I recognize that my demand for concessions will most likely result in my forfeiture of free beer for myself. I’ll bring whiskey for anyone who wants some.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
Makers?
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
If that's what you really want, sure.
I should point out, though, that Maker’s Mark calls it whisky, not whiskey like every other bourbon.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
That is interesting
Not sure I ever really noticed.
What is your whiskey of choice?
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
I'm a big fan of the Buffalo Trace products.
Buffalo Trace, W.L. Weller, Rip Van Winkle, Blanton’s, Sazerac Rye… Honestly, I’m not one to judge another man’s choice of beverage.
If you can find it, Fighting Cock from Heaven Hill has excellent flavor, is very reasonably priced (~$20 a fifth) and will knock you on your ass before you know what hit you.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
I might have to find that
And I have always heard good things about Rip Van Winkle but have never had the opportunity to try.
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
One day...
When I have $250 burning a hole in my pocket, there’s a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle with my name on it.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
Well when you get it
can I get a $10 shot?
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Yes
I love Buffalo Trace. I think we had this conversation a few months back
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Hmm
I wonder if my local liquor stores carry it?
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Should
They carry it in the DC area. And I’ve definitely bought it in State College.
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
I love Whiskey
All kinds. I’m somewhat of a connesuire of Scotch and Whiskey (but not really). I just pretend like I am
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
Does this apply to every thread from here on out?
Inquiring minds would like to know. [plans on making 30 fanshots if answer is yes]
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
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A few questions:
1) What sort of beer?
2) Where in the country do you live?
2b) If you live around the DC area will you drink it with me?
2c) If not will I have to pay for shipping and handling?
Whittle your whiskey around like blazes, t'underin' Jaysus, do ye think I'm dead?
I was wondering these questions as well
"In every life there have to be some shadows. Look at me. My life has been filled with sunshine. A beautiful and caring wife. Five healthy children. I got to do what I loved. How many people are that lucky?" THE Joseph Vincent Paterno.
More from Jenkins
Since, apparently, nobody but me has actually read her.
That’s not my understanding. Paterno is adamant that he had no knowledge of any previous report concerning Sandusky. He claims total ignorance of a 1998 police investigation of another shower incident that resulted in the local prosecutor decling to bring charges. I asked Paterno, “You never heard anything about that?” He said he had “no inkling” of it. I then followed up and pressed him on it, and asked how could he not have heard “a whisper,” or a “rumor?” He said, “everybody thinks it was all over the (football) building. It wasn’t. Nobody knew.” As for the 2002 report from McQueary, my understanding is that if Paterno didn’t have information, it’s because he simply never asked. Which obviously many people interpret to mean he didn’t WANT to know.
– January 16, 2012
Im curious since your such a Sally Jenkins expert
Anywhere did she mention that Joe followed up with McQuery afterward OR (whether you want to refute this or not) Curley testified to following up with Joe himself? Considering shes asking the “follow up” questions here and pressing the issue, dont you think she should have at least included those two tidbits in her follow up?
Just to play devil's advocate...
Does anyone else think it’s possible that Sally Jenkins left some unanswered questions for the sake of having people continue to talk about her interview long after it was published?
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
I am dumber for having read this post and a few of the comments
I am dumber still for having responded to the wall that is M1EK.
It’s a shame this site doesn’t have moderators any more.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
Hey, I'm pretty proud of the tangents on bourbon and nuclear weapons.
Unrepentant Joe Paterno Apologist®
I'm thinking the mods' hope is that they will let us burn ourselves out.
Clearly you know what you’re going to get when you enter a post by M1EK, and if this somehow reaches a conclusion or causes most people to tire of arguing about this subject, it’ll only help make their jobs easier in the other posts.
It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task.
by Succss With Honor Always on Feb 6, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ironic Typos
how I love thee.
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
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Correction:
that’s not ironic. Technically I love “Unintended yet apropo typos”
I'm on the Internet cause I'm an Internet thug.
#OccupyESPN
Follow @134Lounge
This is getting to be re-goddamn-diculous.
These threads all follow the same pattern:
1) M1EK states an unpopular opinion about Joe not doing enough.
2) People jump all over him about it, often condescendingly.
3) M1EK condescendingly accuses people of making assumptions and jumping to conclusions, while
4) he also jumps to conclusions and makes assumptions when arguing his own points.
5) A number of commentators state that M1EK is a jerk-face
6) M1EK says something like “don’t call me a jerk-face, jerk-face”.
7) The obligatory “Dude, you make some good points, but you don’t have to be such an a$$hole about it” comment.
8) The “I’m only being an a$$hole because YOU’RE being an a$$hole” reply.
9) I bash my head in with a ball-peen hammer.
"I guess we had a couple of Catholics praying for US!" - JVP, after the down to the wire win over Notre Dame in 1987
by icavalera on Feb 6, 2012 4:01 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
That's damn comprehensive
My only question is why bother? Is it to drive up the impressive twitter following? To get someone to agree with him? Because mommy didn’t hug him enough? I truly DON’T want to know.
"I just want everyone in this situation to man the fuck up and accept some of the responsibility." SwHA
It doesn't always follow that order, but yes
also, you forgot
-where we create a subthread built off of some ridiculous statement or joke
-Post a funny gif
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