Brian refutes your characterizations!  PSU has had a couple of shady commitments themselves...glass houses yo.

and his hundreds of harvested from larva posters are onto you.  I put my 2c in but my head will explode if i try and keep up with the 30 posts/second rate they move at over there.

Jesse, you might want to reread Brian's post.  He put up specific examples of Big Ten teams supposedly violating the gentleman's agreement.  Just last year, Brian cited 4 examples of players switching teams within the BT.  

Also, Bobocar Cissoko verballed to Michigan.  you guys tried to recruit him after he verballed.  He just stayed with Michigan.  Why is okay for you to go after Michigan recruits (or ask them to visit the campus) but wrong for RR to do it with Shaw?  The obvious answer is - you're being totally hypocritical cause you lost out.

BTW, I assume then you guys won't go after Schiano then when Joepa leaves.  Because Schiano has declared his love for Rutgers, and if he left, that would make him a scumbag mercenary by your definition.

Your joking, right?  Brian cited examples of several teams violating the agreement last year, before RR got to Ann Arbor.  So if that's the case, then there must be no gentleman's agreement, right?  The idea of saying RR violated the gentleman's agreement that BT coaches don't go after each others recruits, when clearly its obvious that no such agreement existed, is incorrect.  Not sure how you can defend that.

Second, if you never heard of Cissoko, then you don't know much about recruiting.  He's a 5 star CB that you guys tried to get on campus after he verballed to Michigan.  Just because you don't know about doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Ultimately, it's very hard for you to hold the high ground on this argument.  You complain that RR violated a gentleman's agreement that obviously doesn't exist, complain about poaching recruits when PSU has done it plenty of times (not sure why you think its bad to do it to a BT team, but okay to do it to Maryland or Pitt), all the while claiming that RR will bring sleaze to UM in the same column where you mention two more players at PSU have been suspended for their part in a brawl.

are having a tough time dealing with the fact that RR is a douch.  That's my observation.

First off, stealing recruits is stealing recruits...if you do it, you're shady, and everyone appears to be doing it, even you.

This is the unspoken rule per Tiller...

"There has been an unspoken rule that if a guy commits and you've been recruiting him hard, you always call them up and say, 'Are you sure about this?' If he says yes, you back off.

I do think unspoken rules are retarded to begin with and don't think a new coach should have to adhere to something like that, but besides that, what evidence is there to say Rodriguez violated the unspoken rule??  Maybe, just maybe, Shaw and Roundtree saw the coaching change at UM and thought "hey, that would be perfect for me" and when contacted by Rodriguez (allowed under the unspoken rule) they decided to switch.

Wolverine...we're not the one's calling RR the " guy in a wizard hat selling snake oil"..that was Tiller complaining about the Gentleman's rule.
So go justify you're reasoning on their message board.

Very witty reply.  I guess I should make some similar type of comeback, like how Joepa is old, or Jaypa got his job through nepotism, or 10 straight wins.  

But I'll simply say, based on the above post, you guys already have the early lead on the Fulmer Cup.  I would imagine it would be smarter to cast aspersions in another post, one that doesn't talk about your curent team members being kicked off the squad (a year later) for kicking someone or doing a Superfly Snuka.  

I hate the lie that Rich Rod was negotiating the HC job at Michigan before WVU played Pittsburgh.  If you go back, WVU played Pitt on 12/1.  Rich Rod didn't interview with Michigan until 12/15.  There is just no truth to it.  If you repeat something enough people will believe it.  This type of rumor destroys reputations.

Back on 12/1 Michigan was still in pursuit of Les Miles.  Does everyone characterize Miles as a scumbag now?

What a bunch of garbage! Until the kid makes his commitment official with a letter, he is neither  property of any school, nor does any school have a formal claim on him/her. We at Michigan know that, as we have "lost" verbal commitments in the past. Big deal!

In this instance, kids who were not interested in Michigan gained that interest when Michigan's coaching situation changed. Why shouldn't they? A simple explanation, but one a lot of people have difficulty understanding.

The same people who argue that an athlete should be able to transfer without penalty because of coaching changes now seem to claim an athlete who has not officially committed to any school should be bound by a prior verbal. Give me a break!

Again, you're joking, right?  You keep claiming there was a gentleman's agreement.  Clearly, there wasn't.  As Brian has pointed out, there have been several times over the past couple of years where teams have poached recruits from fellow BT members.  Happened to Michigan last year with Jeremy Finch.  So just because Joe Tiller said there is an agreement, doesn't mean one exists.  And the proof is that, as Brian points out, every other coach in the BT save a few has violated said agreement.  So yes, Joe Tiller isn't telling the truth.

As for Cissoko, read up on him, chief.  You guys tried to get him.  The idea that happened months ago, means nothing.  If you are claiming going after a recruit after he verbals is wrong, which you did, what does timing matter?

You keep trying to justify your positions.  PSU poaches, but its okay because they do it from nonBT schools, and they only do it to BT schools months before signing deadlines.  Just fess up - you guys poach just like everyone else.  Now all you need to do is find someone to help you off that high horse.

Shknbk60, Mike did claim that Michigan violated the unspoken agreement, so this is the proper place to respond.

Nick, sorry, you are correct.  The timing of your players infractions does disqualify them for Fulmer Cup points.  Still, you must be very proud

/Now all you need to do is find someone to help you off that high horse./

Michigan fan's used to be told this a lot more then they said it....that all changed real fast when rr was hired...i wonder why. (note i end with a period)

yeah blog post fights!

yeah, really.  You keep ignoring all the examples of Big Ten coaches stealing players withing the Big Ten.  Those are facts.  And it happened long before RR became coach at Michigan.  Tiller is giving his opinion, one that he conveniently ignored in 2003, as Brian points out, when he took a TE from michigan State.  So yeah, he's not telling the truth.  You keep pointing to a mythical agreement.  I've pointed out several facts which show this agreement doesn't exist, including the fact that Tiller himself violated this magical agreement.  But you just continue to ignore it, because the facts undress your position.  I understand that facts can be inconvenient, but there they are.  You should feel free to pepper your future posts with them.

It's kind of funny that you try to find a distinction in the timing of stealing a recruit, then accuse me of moral relativism.  Either stealing a recruit in the BT is wrong, or it isn't.  In the mythical agreemnt that Tiller speaks of, I don't remember him putting a timetable on it.  But again, don't let that bother you.

Your just wrong, wrong, wrong on this.  It's clear that plenty of teams in the Big Ten steal recruits from other BT schools (again, proven fact).  It happned often before RR came to Michigan.  It's clear that PSU does it too, and its clear that they tried to do the very same thing this year to Michigan.  You can continue to try to justify your position, but the facts aren't there

Totally absurd.  

Bottom line is that these players didn't want to play for UM and Carr (or hadn't been offered by them).  And in the end, they didn't want to play for the schools they'd committed to either.  They wanted to play for UM under the new coaching staff.  It was an unfortunate set of circumstances for the jilted schools that RR wasn't recruiting at UM until 1/1/08.  Didn't give the kids much time to change they're mind or make contingency plans.

But the fact that they'd rather plan someplace else doesn't make RR imoral or unethical for allowing the kids that opportunity.  Once these kids publically stated they were taking offical visits to UM (which they all did) the game was back on.

And why would you want a kid that would rather play someplace else?  

Rich Rod didn't sneak into the back of the chicken coop and grab these guys in the night.  The new coaching staff came in and contacted these recruits.  Assuming that Tiller's "gentleman's agreement" exists (and there is zero evidence to support this other than the heated words of a guppy old man who just lost his #1 recruit), call it a phone call from Rich to say, "yeah, you said no to Lloyd.  But there's a new staff in place, what say you?"  

Each and every one of those kids said, "I'm listening."  Each and every one of those kids told scout and rivals "I've been contacted by the new coaching staff at UM.  I'm intrigued.  I'm listening.  I'm scheduling an official visit."   Or in some cases, they'd never been recruited or offered by the old staff.

At some point on that time line Wilford or JoePa needs to get on the horn and start fighting for that kid again.  Not doing so is pure stupidity.  Further, to suggest that they didn't do so with Shaw and Roundtree is pure stupidity.  As these guys were telling the world that they were taking official recruiting visits to other schools, do you think that other coaches were resting on the "gentleman's agreement"?  

     

They're bowl record sucks, and that's because they have a habit of going to bowls they have no business being in because Big Ten officials have a long history of favoring them above all else.  See wins against Penn State in 2002 and 2005, and scUM's win against Illinois in 2001.  For all this great talent and history and tradition and all else, how many national titles have they had in the last sixty years?  One, and that was shared.  Michigan is as arrogant as Nebraska (firing Frank Solich after a 9-3 season and 2 years removed from playing for a national championshiop) and Notre Dame (to explain this fucking outfits arrogance, see www.notredamesucks.org), but with no good reason.  Simply look at the bowl games.  If Rich Rodriguez is as big a dickhead as he appears to be, then this is a match made in heaven.  May they crash and burn together.  

OK OK OK LET ME TRY.... OK I GOT IT:

1- I liked beachum more all along anyway.

2- How good is RichRod going to be without a QB anyway?

PSU is stealing Pryor away from the OSU/scUM saga as we speak.  And no, I wont be apologizing for stealing the QB that promised RichRod he'd follow him to Ann Arbor. What a whore.

program when the kid's father prefers that he goes to Penn State as opposed to playing for scUM or the Ohio State Fuckeyes?  And granted, I'll be the first to admit our track record is less than stellar at developing QB's, but apparently Pryor's dad is more concerned that somebody actually is going to care about his son and his education that just pimping him out as a football player.  And look at the Rodriguez bit with the files and all.  Say what you want to about us, but our program is on the up-and-up and is more stable than Ohio State or Michigan.  That's why we are Penn State!!!

does not compare whatsoever to Shaw.

I'm too lazy to find the link, but I recall reading an article about Morelli in one of the Pittsburgh papers, I think Post-Gazette, about his recruitment by JoePa.

One of the key points of the article was that Paterno insisted he tell Pitt that he was re-opening his recruitment (this was on the heels of PSU getting burned by Henne verbally, then backing out).

I do not believe Paterno would be so principled in demanding that one of his most prized recruits over the past few years inform Pitt that he was looking elsewhere if this were not standard procedure for him whenever speaking to someone who has verbally committed to another school (e.g. Walker--who quite similar to Morelli, announced he was exploring other options, including PSU.  PSU's influence??  I didn't see any other de-commits publicly waivering).

The thing that stands out here is FEAR!!!! All we do.... 'UofM'  is make a coaching change and all hell breaks loose. What did you think?  PSU finally figured MICHIGAN out? and you were expecting to win one from MICHIGAN next year right?. I guess I can understand that, seeing as close as PSU got to a victory was 1 SECOND!! I love JOE PA!! The man has class, so does his TEAM, and thats more than I can say for his following.  Give it a rest and take your BEATING..... Whether it's a BEAT DOWN on the FIELD or in RECRUITING!!!    WE ARE MICHIGAN!!!.

you KNOW what MAKES a STATEMENT more POWERFUL?  If YOU capitalize MORE words, IT looks more IMPRESSIVE. WE are PENN state!

PROFOUND REPLY... you are penn state.

I'd be sick to my fucking stomach if I had to win a game that way.  And it wasn't just the two seconds put back on the clock.  Look at Hart's fumble that didn't get reviewed.  Look at Jason Avant's foot land out of bounds with 37 seconds left on a 17 yard completion that didn't get reviewed.  Why weren't these plays reviewed.  They made damn fucking sure Tony Hunt's fumble was reviewed to make sure the play was called correctly.  Could it have anything to do with the Big Ten supervisor in charge of replay having a Michigan shrine in his office?  Or is Michigan so fucking arrogant that they figure they're entitled to a win, no matter whether it's earned or given to them?  If the officials ever handed us a game that way, I'd be sick and be man enough to admit we were given a gift.  But I doubt anybody that roots for those fucking ugly helmets has enough class to admit a hose job when they see one.  

Hey don't be upset, at least they scored in 05' unlike 2001, 20-0, and yes here's another 1998, 27-0. So you got that going for ya! Oh........ nice White Helmet!   Which I liked......  until you opened your yap!!

I Agree, that LOSS will hurt for a long time!

....

Enough with the pissing contest already.  It's only February.

A PITT fans gets the 100th post!

This is a great thread, and I'll put in my two cents worth.  

College recruiting is a distasteful part of what is a great sport, but I do not believe any school, albeit PSU, UM, PITT or any other (Purdue included) have the right to point fingers at any other school in accusation. If any fan tells you their school doesn't engage in last minute persuasion of verbally committed players - they are either lying or naive.

However, I do believe that certain individuals in the coaching ranks engage in ethically questionable tactics more then others - and I'll put Rick Rodriguez right at the top of the list.

It's one thing to keep in contact with a kid right up until he signs (I'm skeptical of Tiller's stating "if he say yes, I'll back off") but another altogether to make absurd promises or break NCAA rules (RR's phone call to Pryor during the quiet time is just one example) in the pursuit.

Now, how the Michigan faithful can turn a blind eye to the low character of their new head coach is, and has been, a source of wonderment for me.  His track record at WVU speaks for itself and isn't pretty in that regard.  I truly expected more from UM and was shocked they actually hired RR. And, I think that hire was a nose-pinching last gasp hire until they can get someone they actually want as a head coach.

Finally - can anyone on here actually give PITT some credit for soundly beating WVU on Dec 1st?  Granted there was some dramatic fallout after that loss - but even the WVU players themselves have stated that nothing about RR's employment effected them in the week before or during the game.  Let's give credit where it's due.

.... tiller tried to get their top WR, right after he found out about Roundtree, but he had already sent in his LOI! So what does that make tiller? A snakeoil salesman, plus a two faced liar?

Signing day means just that --- signing day. A verbal commitment is, never was, and never will be binding. Every coach knows it and must live with it. Some people claim that athletes should not even be bound to their written commitment if the coach of the program they committed to leaves. Many of these same people now want to make a verbal commitment binding, even after coaching circumstances change. Rich Rod did not steal anyone's "property." No university has any claim on an athlete based solely on a verbal commitment. Why is that so hard to understand?