No Hard Feelings
by jesse. on Apr 2, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
31 comments
Why the Pitt rivalry is dead, and you shouldn't care.
The Rift.
The Eastern Eight; for those who are unfamiliar, it was the brainchild of Joe Paterno. He envisioned it as an all sports league, to rival the other major conferences. It would have included Penn State, Pitt, West Virginia, Syracuse, Boston College, Rutgers and Temple. There were rumors that Maryland would have left the ACC and joined as well. The football champion would have received an automatic bid to the Fiesta Bowl. Legend has it that the deal was done, until Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College all decided to join/remain in the Big East, and remain as independents in football. Penn State, West Virginia, Rutgers & Temple would all remain in the venerable Atlantic 10 for basketball and most other sports. Of course the folks at Pitt argue that Penn State was offered admission to the Big East, but refused because there was no football component to the Big East at that time. I imagine this is true.
Why it matters.
Pitt and Syracuse, the primary offenders, clearly made basketball decisions. The Big East was clearly a superior league, and cutting ties with St. John's and Georgetown to play Penn State and WVU in basketball was unpalatable from a basketball prospective for obvious reasons. This important insofar as its sets the precedent more than 20 years ago that Syracuse and Pitt were going to be basketball schools, rather than football schools. Subsequent developments like both football programs going into the tank for long stretches, and more importantly the destruction of Pitt Stadium to make way for Petersen Events Center both show the schools predilections toward basketball over football.
If you look at the Big East, then and now, you see schools that look more like Pitt and Syracuse than Penn State. Today, in addition to those two schools, the backbone of the Big East includes Cincinnati, Louisville & South Florida (in Tampa). What do those schools all have in common? They are urban schools, located in "second" cities, that while being bigger schools, are not flagship state schools. I have already started to hear whispers in the wind about Memphis, and what a natural fit for the Big East they would be in both football and basketball. The basketball only members; DePaul, Marquette, St. John's, Georgetown & Providence (previously Boston College) are all small catholic schools in urban areas. The Big East is essentially a confederation of two types of schools, neither of which are similar to Penn State in any way. If PSU were to join the Big East, we constantly find that our interests are being prejudiced by group decisions being made to favor schools with which we have nothing in common.
Questions and Answers
Q; But it's not like they love us in the Big Ten.
A: This is true, but look at the schools, they are all flagship state schools and land grant colleges. The interests of Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, etc. are much more likely to be in line with Penn State's than Pitt and Syracuse's. Loved or not, the marriage with the Big Ten makes eleven times more sense than marriage with the Big East. Even Notre Dame is having trouble making being an independent work, in fact, they have to compete in the Big East in every other sport. It's fair to assume the Big East won't give that same deal to Penn State.
Q: But that doesn't mean we can't still play Pitt in football.
A: No, it doesn't but why should we? Pitt brings nothing to the table that we can't get from a hundred other schools. The economics don't work out, and if it was really that important, either Pitt or Penn State needed to make different decisions a long time ago. At this point it's better to make a clean break, and try to build new traditions.
Q: But Pitt's our rival.
A: No they aren't, they used to be our rival. They are an urban basketball school that we have nothing at all in common with. Further, to the extent they were our rival, the fight is over. We won. Joe Paterno's record against Pitt is 23-7-1, does that sound like a rivalry to you? Pitt may have won the last battle, but this war was over a long time ago. The fact that Pitt won't admit it is irrelevant.
Q: But it's tradition.
A: We used to play Bucknell every year too. But eventually, we stopped. Why? Because it also tradition that times must, and always do change.
Q: You're just scared of Pitt.
A: Not really, the record speaks for itself. But being shamed into a game is no way to make a football schedule anyway. I'll be honest though, we have kicked Pitt's ass for forty years and they keep coming back. They keep arguing that they are better, and they keep signing Penn State Sucks. I respect that, but we don't need that shit in our life. The Big Ten is already requires eight tough football games, what Penn State doesn't need is a damn blood feud with a 4-7 team that's going to show up ready to fight to the death, notwithstanding their demand that we show up at their place every other year to do it. If we are going to schedule a tough game, that has to be a home and home, I say play a team that we'd actually get some credit for beating.
Q: But it's just not the same without playing Pitt.
A: No, it's not. I'll admit that before the Michigan State game last year I contemplated ways to try and revive the series. But look that the scores of the Michigan State games, the series is just as competitive, if not more competitive than the Pitt series. Further, Michigan State is usually better than Pitt.
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I love how...
by kevinrmcguire on Apr 2, 2008 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eastern Eight
Who is the other school that was intended to be in this conference?
by RoyRogers on Apr 2, 2008 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
questions
by nittanyfaithful on Apr 2, 2008 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Convincing
I used to be slightly in favor of renewing the rivalry but when you boil it down to the core, I really just don't care about Pitt. My feelings for Pitt are probably similar to Ohio State's for Penn State. We have bigger fish to fry. Starting it back up again would benefit Pitt far more than it would PSU, and I'm all against doing anything that would help them out.
by 06Lion on Apr 2, 2008 5:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not convinced
by blt on Apr 2, 2008 5:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Look at it this way...
Ohio State and Michigan, is not a valid comparison to PSU/Pitt; the former is a conference game in November between two state schools that are almost always playing for a conference title. The latter series (In 2009 and beyond) is more analogous to Kentucky and Louisville (i.e. an inter-conference game played in September, that has a little cache for ESPN marketing purposes).
It might be worth the reach for a rivalry on the scale of OSU/Michigan, but not for Kentucky/Louisville.
[2] I'm not convinced that we have to go back down the road with Pitt because Ohio State and Michigan consider us "small potatoes". The solution to that problem is to start beating them, not find some other team to beat up on.
by jesse. on Apr 2, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
If we want a rivalry, we have to look elsewhere for a good one. The contrived crap between MSU and Minnesota just ain't cutting it. 90% of the PSU fanbase has probably never even been to Michigan or Minnesota. It's hard to hate places you've never been.
I'd propose looking for a similar-style school in one of our traditional recruiting grounds. A school with a rabid fanbase. One that recently, we've grown a repertoire with. Personally, I'd like to see us schedule a four game series with Virginia Tech. They have almost exclusive recruiting rights to the state of Virginia, which produces a lot of athletes (our very own MRob). I've been to the campus, I've been to a game, and I personally know a lot of their fans. The similarities are there.
by 06Lion on Apr 2, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Listen. Living day in, and day out in the line of furious Pittsburgh fire is a chore as a Penn State fan. "Shady is going to win the Heisman, he's so much better than anyone at Penn State", "The Big 10 sucks, so does Michigan St., who cares if you beat them", "Joe Paterno (insert inteligible joke here)". Sure, its easy to say from somewhere else in PA that it wouldn't bother you, but, I'm telling you, its no picnic being ripped everyday, when we're clearly superior to Pitt in every way possible, excpet maybe basketball.
The Michigan St.'s win over Pitt in the NCAAs a couple of weeks ago was easily my favorite sports memory so far in 2008. I've dealt with so much shit over PSU basketball from ignorant Pitt fans, incapable of acknowleging our progress. Watching a really good team that we beat cream the Panthers validated the entire basketball season for me, and shut the yinzrs up. It was a great feeling. Would I have felt that way if we'd beaten OSU in bball this year? A team that got to the NC game, and has far more viability as a basketball program than Pitt?
No.
And that, my friends, is why the rivalry needs renewed. The Hate
The Pittsburgh press sticks us in the margins. The Panther fans have built an alternate reality in which they actually think they're better than us, not only athletically, but academically as well ("UPMC Baby!). The funny thing is that a large segment of the Pitt population never actually went there in the first place. Many are poor white trash that can barely verbalize their thoughts, and believe anything the PG and KDKA tells them to believe. They spend every dime they have on Pitt and Steeler football. They're the scum of society, and kicking their ass every year again would permenently reestablish us as the only program a good recruit coming out of the WPIAL should consider. You can't deny that Pitt HAS been getting recruits, and the reason is that State College is perceived as a far and distant threat by the papers and their band of deadbeat Pitt loving writers.
Pitt's perception nationally matters little in the WPIAL, where the press can define what Pitt is for the people that orbit around it. Its true of the yinzrs, and its true of the quality recruits that Western PA produces. The tide is gradually turining against us, and denying it is to sit in an ivory tower and pretend revolution isnt happening below.
Give them their damn home and home, march the Lions into Heinz Field, and let the bloodbath commence. Let Sean Lee implant his helment in Shady's ass. Take no prisoners, and crush them. Then ask them again if they want to keep it going. If they do (which they will, like the stupid kid that never learns his lesson), then the ball will be in THEIR court to make the concession to a 3 to 2 format to keep it going. If they refuse, Joe will have validation to the "They aren't in our league anymore" arguement, and Pitt fans will be forced to recognize that this fiasco is Pitt's fault, and not Joe Paterno's. Its a win win. Either pick up a yearly punching bag whose name commands more respect than Coastal Carolina in a BCS arguement, or permenently end this battle with one swift stroke.
However, contrary to this post's believe, we DO have something to lose by letting western PA think that Pitt is a legitimate program, because, perception is reality. If Wanstache is successful in building this so called "fence" around the WPIAL, it is not a good thing for Penn State.
Period.
by fugimaster24 on Apr 2, 2008 6:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Disclaimer
You can't deny that theres a large segment of the Pitt fan population that never graduated from high school, let alone college, that are controlled like cattle in Pittsburgh by the media.
They're responsible for creating this myth, because they've got nothing better to do than call talk shows from their graveyard shifts at Wal-Mart and Wendy's.
If you're a self respecting Pitt fan, you know what I'm talking about. They're the ones that jumped on the Penguin bandwagon, they're the ones that call for Ben's head after every pick, and they're the ones who wear the "If you ain't a Pittsburgh fan, you ain't shit" shirt every 3 days. They reflect poorly on you, and its got to be frustrating. I know how it feels because I was a Pens fan BEFORE we were good, and these same deadbeats have turned the Penguins into another opportunity to get together and drink and make themselves look like idiots. They will acheive nothing in life, other than being the proud owners of a signed Tommy Maddox rookie card, throwing batteries at Dave Parker, and starting homosexual rumors about Kordell Stewart.
Pitt has supplied my docter, my dentist, my pharmasist, and my family attorney. I've have no reason to strike you all down, but, its a fact that a large group of the Pitt fanbase is of lame existance, and of delusional thinking that needs to be supressed.
by fugimaster24 on Apr 2, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse the Spelling
by fugimaster24 on Apr 2, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you brought up a good point...
by rmcmillen50 on Apr 2, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesse and Fugi...
I can only imagine what it's like living in Pittsburgh as a Penn Stater. The Pittsburgh media is so slanted against Penn State it's borderline criminal. There's no objectivity in their writing whatsoever. Everything they pen is designed to make Penn State look foolish, incompetent, and inferior (either to Pitt or to other institutions in general). It makes me furious when I read that crap and I have the good fortune of not having to live there... where Pitt fans can buy into it wholeheartedly. Perhaps more than any other fictional rivalry, this one is fueled by the delusions of the fans of the inferior team. Of course, the question remains: Is reinitiating the series good for Penn State football?
Yes, we'd surely kick their ass 4 out of 5 times... but, as Jesse writes, it would be a "blood feud with a 4-7 team that's going to show up ready to fight to the death". I bring this up not to suggest that we should be fearful of the competition [We'd mop the field with them on a regualr basis], but rather to make note of the fact that the game itself, simply by being played, would legitimize Pitt as a football program worthy of some respect. Right now, they only get respect from the horrible Pittsburgh media and from ESPN on certain days, since they play in the Big LEast. However, the majority of the country (outside the WPIAL area) currently recognizes Pitt as an insigificant joke... and that's the way it should stay.
So, yes... it must completely suck to have to live in Pittsburgh and put up with Ron Cook's baseless drivel and the impact it has on the Pitt scum who live there. People like him do their best to encourage the myth that Penn State won't renew the series for fear of losing to Pitt. Fortunately, the large majority of the country isn't buying into that ridiculous lie. Most people aren't dumb enough to believe that a Big Ten school would fear an urban basketball school that loses football games to Navy in someone else's stadium on Wednesday nights in front of 11,000 people. So, rather than renewing the series and helping Pitt regain some credibility, I suggest we do our very best to ignore them and let them continue to ease their way into college football anonymity. Soon, like Temple, they'll realize their best suited for the MAC's level of competition... and what a fine day that will be.
by BSM PSU 93 on Apr 3, 2008 9:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Morelli
by queler on Apr 3, 2008 9:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My rebuttal
The analogous team to Penn State, is Tennessee. Who is Tennessee's biggest rival in the SEC? It's Alabama and Florida. But Alabama's biggest rival is clearly Auburn and Florida's is with Florida State or Georgia. Is Tennessee any less of a program because they aren't anybodies "most hated rival", of course not. Should they have to run out and schedule Memphis because a bunch of loudmouths keep screaming that they won't play them, of course not. Tennessee and Alabama play an October rivalry game, it's a big game for both schools for a lot of reasons. Penn State and Ohio State is already the same type of game. It will never be the Michigan game to Ohio State, but that doesn't mean it's not important to them or to us.
Finally, who cares what the talking heads in Pittsburgh say to pander to a pro Pitt audience? I live in Pittsburgh, when they start in on me I say 23-7-1. I note that the last time Pitt was ranked number 1 was when the clock struck zeros November 28, 1981. I tell them that in the absolute heyday of their program they went 3-4 against Penn State. Does it convince them? No, nothing will, beating them 25 times in a row won't convince them. Eventually you just have to walk away from the argument, especially when it's over and you won.
We have a better stadium, better fans, a better schedule and a better tradition. We don't need Pitt. There is nothing to gain from going backwards in history.
by jesse. on Apr 3, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To put it another way
Penn State has moved on to bigger and better things, Pitt's still living in the past. I don't hate Pitt, I feel bad for them.
by jesse. on Apr 3, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohio State and Michigan would see us as
by Ab4PSU on Apr 3, 2008 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The only reason
Someone suggested Mich St.'s football program is better than Pitt's. Give me a break, it's no better or worse than Pitt.
There will never, ever, be a rivalry in the Big 10 like that with Pitt. There will never, ever, be a Big 10 team that regards Penn St. as its biggest rival.
Good Lord some of you are arrogant. You think there's no toothless Penn St. fans? Ever seen people at Beaver Stadium with their hunting jackets on? Ever smelled the "country air" at the stadium? Penn St. is a great program, but we couldn't beat the worst Michigan team in memory last year, and our conference flagship team has just gotten blasted two years in a row in the national title game.
There's simply no reason not to have Pitt on the schedule every year. Conference affiliation can be disregarded, with 4 open spaces on the schedule, you can easily fit in game with Pitt along with one or two other quality opponents, just like Florida-Florida St. or Michigan-ND play every year without being in the same conference.
by Joe 96alum on Apr 3, 2008 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There's simply no reason TO have Pitt
by PSU Nick on Apr 3, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
reason v. emotion
The point of the post is in the title; "No hard feelings". If you follow the history, you'll see two schools that each made their own decisions that led us to a point where a future relationship between the schools is pointless. It was a bad breakup, but four years later it's time to move on with our lives. Them too.
At the end of the day, Pitt is in the right league for Pitt, and Penn State is in the right league for Penn State. Pitt makes decisions that benefit Pitt, and Penn State does the same. I think both schools are better off without each other. This is great blog and talk show fodder, but whether you agree with me or not, this game isn't coming back. Like the title says, I'm just trying to tell you why you shouldn't care.
by jesse. on Apr 3, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My Most Important Point
Pitt has been out recruiting us lately. Look it up. The Big East sucks, which is why Pitt could easily go from the jokes they are now, to the recent glory they had in the dying days of the legitimate Big East. It isn't that long ago that Heinz Field was packed full for games with VA Tech, Miami, and BC, and a little success, even in the Big East, would send intrest soaring. Pittsburgh fans, while dumb, are flock like. If Pitt is anywhere near respectable, they'll have 50,000 or more in there for every game. They're also picking up guys that should be able to win in that league despite the Stache. I won't be suprised if Pitt wins 8 games this season. Dead serious.
My point is, we may view them as a harmless gnat now, without any real threat to PSU, but God help us if they win the conference and get to a BCS Bowl in the next, 3-4 years, which in the BE is a real possibility. Then, the fence around the WPIAL will be up, and its not a good thing for Penn State at all.
Beating Pitt now, would go a long way in keeping that from happening. If Joe did it in his last year or so A) Pitt people wouln't have the "sour grapes" arguement to fall back on anymore, and B) kids who will be going into school for the next 10 years will remember the ass whooping we put on them and immediately dream of beaing Nittany Lions.
And again, you act like the cupcakes PSU brings in now just roll over for us because we are Penn State. Thats fantasy. We're whoever we play in non-conf.'s super bowl every year. Fla. Intl, Buffalo, and Coastal Carolina probably bring their best everytime they play us. I don't see what the difference is between them and Pitt in that respect. What I DO see is a team with a name that, even when they're down, people respect much more than those punching bags we play now. Not only that, but beating them creates some in state buzz, so attention, some visability.
Do they get a lot out of renewing the rivalry? Yes, but so do we. Instead of playing Buffalo on ESPNU at noon, we're on ABC at 3:30 renewing a rivalry you know ESPN will jump all over. We get back our old stomping grounds in western PA for good, we legitimize our out of conference record, and we shut them all up. These are good, substanative reasons.
If they still expect us to sign a 26 year home and home contract after that, then I agree, they're nuts and to hell with them, but if one home and home, when we have friggen Syracuse on the schedule, ends all this, then its worth it. If we can get them to agree to a 15 year, 3 and 2 format, I think it would help us a lot to be kicking their ass then Coastal Carolina's.
by fugimaster24 on Apr 3, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ABC ain't putting Penn State-Pitt at 3:30
by PSU Nick on Apr 3, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then who is?
by fugimaster24 on Apr 3, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know what to think, Fugimaster, but
by Ab4PSU on Apr 3, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohio State-Washington
by PSU Nick on Apr 3, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PSU - Pitt
PSU used to play a good bit of ACC or SEC games. I wish we would play more! Am very exited for PSU-Bama! Wish both schools would keep that one going....Much more exciting than PSU-Pitt! Outside of PSU fans (which hands down hold the distinction of being the best fans in the country)....I have to say SEC fans are the best.
by pic15 on Apr 4, 2008 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The recruiting argument
Out of 10 Western PA recruits, 7 of them are either definitely going to Penn State, or definitely going to Pitt, and there is no changing their mind. It just so happens that this year the better guys happened to be Pitt kids. The other three are getting recruited by everybody, and whether Penn State or Pitt play is of little concern.
by jesse. on Apr 3, 2008 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats a Flawed Arguement
by fugimaster24 on Apr 3, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bucknell
by pic15 on Apr 3, 2008 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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